On Ordeals, Great and Small, and Their Crashing
by rsbakker
I’m always amazed at how alien words feel after taking a break from writing, almost as if they’ve used the time to talk amongst themselves, rehearse their grievances, then set about organizing various work-to-rule actions. Plant shut-downs never fail to unnerve me with the possibility that I’ll never get things back up and running.
But I need to get the plant back up and running, and quickly too, because… my UK publisher has finally come to terms on the fourth book.
I had intended on chronicling what’s been going on behind the scenes these past months, the ups and downs, the false starts, the miscommunications, but now I’m really not sure what purpose would be served outside prolonging the prolonging. The important thing is that The Great Ordeal will be published next year, and The Unholy Consult will be published the year following. The exact dates still need to be worked out between my US and UK publishers–I’ll pass those along as soon as I know them.
Why has the book been split? For the same reason The Prince of Nothing was split into a trilogy many moons ago: not because of greedy publishers or a greedy me, but because the story proved longer in the execution than in the planning, plain and simple.
In the meantime, “Crash Space” has just come out in the esteemed Midwest Studies in Philosophy, part of an entire issue dedicated to the relationship between philosophy and science fiction. I’ve yet to receive my gratis issue, but I already know from reading the contributions by Eric Schwitzgebel, Pete Mandik, and Helen de Cruz that it is well worth perusing. If you don’t happen to have a visit to the library in your near future, you can find the archived draft version of “Crash Space” here. Let me know what you think!
Thanks the 100 there is a release on the horizon.
Huzzah!
The Coffers times a thousand!
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Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor have been very impressive and special so far, so this is great news that there will be two more books.
Thank you, Marc. It’s becoming monumental, for sure.
Thanks for the update Scott. I was expecting TUC to be held back until a year later. Hopefully no more than 10-12 months.
Would you say that Unholy Consult would be about the same size as Great Ordeal , which is listed at just below 500 pages by Overlook?
The file is bigger, but then the Encyclopedic Glossary has grown quite big. My guess is that the story will weigh in somewhere over 400 pages, with the EG taking up another 200 or so. My guess.
Haven’t read it all for being scared of getting to the nasty bit, but in regard to Crash Space, I’ll paraphrase the matrix “He’s doing his Hari Seldon thing”
I’m still not clear on why they felt the need to include that warning… It strikes me as a university thing, where student activism (or so I’ve read) has transformed political correctness into prudential muzzle.
Yeah, in the end I was expecting Neuropath sort of nasty stuff, but it didn’t get to that level. I’ve got a rising urge to do some sort of discussion post on it (stupid, isn’t it? Someone constructs something, then someone else tries to dissasemble it again…)
Please, sir. May we have our merest fraction now?
Part of the problem was that my Overlook editor quit (without forewarning), so as it stands, I’m still waiting to be assigned editors for either Overlook or Orbit. As soon as that happens, I can get Pat the rest of the chapter I promised him way back, as well as work out something with Grimdark magazine. You shall have you taste soon enough.
R. Scott Bakker you’re the best. Your unique writing makes me crave your books so much. I will definitely be keeping an eye on any other updates. I’ve already preordered the Great Ordeal on Amazon!
Thanks CJ. Just don’t try to freebase the books! (only I’m allowed… 😉 )
fascinating piece. dude, i could use those OS for the upcoming holidays which have already got my disgust and guilt buzzing.
There’s this Bausch affect emulator I could get you. Think of actually experiencing genuine Christmas cheer! Imagine seeing past the tinsel and still being filled with pious joy!
i just want to be able to emit feckless smiles and other ritualized emotional behavior without getting all wigged out.
Hi Scott,
awesome news!
so is there any hope to have an extended encyclopedic glossary coming out toghether with The Unholy Consult or as a separate piece?
Just out of curiosity, have you already started writing The Book That Should Not Be Named? 😛
Or anything else related to Eärwa? (such as the Isûphiryas).
All the best,
Massi
The EG was the big reason for splitting the books, and its only thing still requiring any serious work. I’ve been writing fragments for the final series for years now–as soon as I’ve finished it and rewritten TUC, the final dualogy is my first priority.
Hooray! Fantastic news, congratulations Scott!
So I assume the EG is wholly contained in TUC, as it was for TTT. Or is it split as well?
Congratulations again! I can’t wait to read it!
Danke, litg. The EG will be entirely in TUC… it’s the only thing requiring major work.
Megacool news. Looking forward to reading the whole issue and, of course, re-reading “Crash Space”. The news that you will be stringing out the terror even longer with TGO and TUC is exquisite 😉
Thanks, David. When are we going to see some of your singularity tales? You’re welcome to try them out here, if you get the itch.
Oooh, thought I sent you the one I read in Blackrock, Dublin. Maybe I’ve glitched the ou email server somehow. #doom
Urk. Lemme check…
Excellent news Scott, both for fans of your fiction and nonfiction. I was really hoping to have a new book this year, but it can wait I guess- generally editors have a good reason to chunk out a narrative.
Thanks, Jorge. Last fall I was certain it would be coming out this year. No dice, though I did manage to write out some of the short story ideas that have been plaguing me.
Holy shit, Crash Space was awesome. Write a screenplay for this and start shopping it around.
I was lucky to finish a publishable draft! I was already deep in the next story (I only wrote something like 5 different 10,000 plus word stories this past summer).
Congratulations, Scott! The “slog of slogs,” indeed! Even without knowing any details, it’s easy to tell this has been an ordeal for you. Your fans patiently await the next installment.
Well, it’s been a haul. I still have difficulty wrapping my head around how bloody long it’s taken. Feels like pressure.
So I guess you could say this final draft was a real chopper? *rim shot*
Ah….seriously though, I’m really excited to read these (now) two books.
It begins as a chopper, at least! Thanks Justin.
You know, I’m not usually a huge fan of your indulgence in italics, but I thought it worked quite well here. Maximum Emphasis All The Goddamn Time!!1
Crank those sliders, man.
You must be protestant! If I had my druthers, I would also use bold and comic sans MS. Spare aesthetics are great ways to divide the herd.
God damnit your draft mental texts were in plus size all caps comic sans, wasn’t it?
ANd lots and lots of thought bubbles too…
I’m sure this is a Dunyain lie? I will try and hide my face and glimpse the text… I will not be manipulated ! 🙂
Great news, cannot wait to get my hands on the new books.
It’s all manipulation all the way down. The questions is whether all manipulations are equal. 😉
there is a question of to what extent it makes sense to speak of manipulation in causal systems, or whether or not manipulation itself is a heuristic way of parsing out causal complexity.
This is what makes having (some locally efficacious) account of heuristics so important (and why I see “The Real Problem of Correlation” as filling a glaring lacuna in BBT). Manipulation can be understood much more economically via correlational cognition (that is, intentionally), but it can be understood causally as well. The real problem, as I see it, is how and where this kind of double-vision (manipulation as action versus manipulation as behaviour) itself breaks down.
Thank you for creating the most thought provoking reading material out there.
You’re very welcome. Hopefully these next two books can add ‘pulse pounding’ to the mix. (Soul rotting goes without saying…)
Fuck yeah!
(Re)cognition breakdown. I’ll very likely always be a dedicated Normie but… It is what it is. Beware the cheese, Chi.
Or take a slice!
soooo aristotelian 😉
I haven’t decided whether or not to cry.
i love how the ‘protagonist’ kept insisting that they were real experiences. in my own life i started calling phone mediated ‘moments’ authentic empresencing. i even got my sister who hates philosophy saying it. lol
I couldn’t be happier for you. You have worked so hard and have had to deal with so much bullshit but you kept at it and you deserve all the success in the world. I hope the books sell incredibly well. I also would love to see Overlook and Orbit both repackage/re-release TPON to try to draw new readers into the series.
I wish you and your family a happy and healthy holiday season and I cannot wait to get my hands on The Great Ordeal next year. Thank you for sharing your talent and your artistic vision with us and for being an all around quality human being.
Peace and Respect
Thank you, 3rdI. My hope is that these two will cement the reputation of the series at least…
For good or ill, I do not know.
Regarding “Flying Under My Own Radar…” and the possibility that publication of “The Great Ordeal” will reignite the sexism debate, it does occur to me that “The Wheel of Time” has an explanation for the fact that the only orthodox magic users are female which is both coherent within the world of the books and integral to their plots. Similarly, the Magister Trilogy (C. S. Friedman) has an explanation for the fact that within its world the only orthodox magic users are male. (I don’t know how she determined that a woman fastening herself to a man and slowly sucking the life out of him is so implausible that the first woman who achieves it deserves to be the star of her own trilogy, but that’s a rant for another time.) I might have missed it, but I don’t recall a similar explanation for the fact that all the orthodox magic users within the world of the Second Apocalypse are male. To be sure, it feels right given that even for those born with the potential for magical ability acceptance into a School and proper training are necessary, and the Schools are enough like medieval universities or guilds that one would not expect them to admit women. I don’t know how you feel about readers speculating about things within the world of the Second Apocalypse that you did not specifically put there, but now that we have a firmish date for “The Great Ordeal” and I can start my preparatory rereading I’ll try to ask myself how likely it is that female magic users could spontaneously arise and become organized within Earwa. I’ll also try to see if there are explicit reasons for the lack of orthodox female magic users that I missed or misremembered from my first reading. Congratulations on finally getting dates. I’m tickled pink for both of us.
A bunch of the members at Second Apocalypse seem to be organizing a reread to coincide with the Overlook’s (possible) release date, MM.
Thanks, Michael. In the Three Seas the reason is sexism, plain and simple. Witches possessing real powers are everywhere, but are suppressed by the Thousand Temples. Kellhus, of course, ’emancipates’ them, but for reasons of social utility, not ‘fairness,’ raising parallels with the economic impetus behind women’s lib… the troubling notion being that ‘equal rights’ is something that falls quite naturally out of nihilism, not ‘enlightenment.’
Sorry to jump in Scott, but to clarify, do you mean only ever falls out of nihilism? Or do you mean it can fall out out of nihilism just as much as some other agenda? I could agree with the latter, if it matters.
Really excited, even though I was initially bummed about the split. Including the EG salves that, though. I’ve pre-ordered TGO and it’s nice to have a date so I can plan my re-read. These new short stories… Atrocity tales? Or more sic-fi like Crash Space?
SF, through and through… that and crazy. Thanks naiv9!
Crash Space was fantastic. Really reminscent of the show Black Mirror – could totally see an episode stem from that. So stoked about the release date of the book, really excited for you Mr. Bakker!
I’m unfamiliar with Black Mirror… but will check it out. Thanks Johnny.
Will TGO also be released as an ebook? On Amazon, I only see the option to pre-order a hardcover edition…
Read through Crash Space and really enjoyed it. I’m all for watching that haunting future reality take place. I’d take the opportunity if given but am resigned to be a bystander. Money.
I only read the draft version of “Crash Space” but I find myself wondering what I might have said in Glenn’s situation. The augments described in the story don’t strike me as immoral, but they strike me as extremely unwise. Human beings routinely make decisions the long term consequences of which can’t possibly be known. (For example the men who launched the industrial revolution can’t possibly have foreseen global warming.) The long term consequences of giving ourselves conscious control over the operation of what today we call our minds are likely to be so large and so unknowable that it would amount to betting the long term survival of our species on the same cleverness that has made it impossible for some young Indian and Chinese men to find wives because their parents thought female infanticide was a good idea.
But you can’t really convince people “we’re too stupid to have more power!”
But I think some of us are convinced or to some degree convinced?
So what’s the difference verses the general population (or vs populations of people who have snuck into authority positions)? What is making the difference?
Okay, I’m late as always, but I just wanted to say: That is fantastic news!
hi Scott! i’ve been out of the loop, sorry. “Crash Space” is now posted on all the “bakkerfans” accounts and linked your wikipedia page. thanks for the updates!
Semi off topic, but I’ve just realised how roleplay culture has entered into a ‘bypass rational thinking’ culture. Like GM’s will routinely give advice to break rule X, but don’t ask the person, just do so secretly if it would increase the players fun. Ie, a full bypass of whether the person agrees with it. It’s possibly the esoteria of the subject that leads to this tricking (the GM tricking themselves as well by seeing smiling players, thus telling themselves ‘the players are okay with it’). Whereas if a candy bar was delicious, but hid that an ingrediant in it contributed to orangutan deaths (and the eater was against that happening), then the person eating it would be having a lot of fun eating the candy bar. With rational bypass thinking, that fun they were having would be all that matters. But it’s a lot more down to earth in the candy bar example. Sorry if I’m just wasing post space! I thought it was interesting and culturally relevant, but it might not be edgey enough.
did you ever play with the critical hit charts in the combat and tactics guide? those rules lasted about a half a session! like how did this lightning bolt which only took away 30 percent of my hit points incinerate my skull.
but i think this is just how RP works. the rules if consistently applied and always followed can get really oppressive really quick.
but i think this is just how RP works. the rules if consistently applied and always followed can get really oppressive really quick.
A shittily designed system as the ‘problem’ that makes the GM the ‘problem solver’ by making you have fun without asking you first whether you agree to the means he uses.
Man, have I been watching RPG design for too long…if only it didn’t seem a bonsai of the world at large!
Side note: I’m actually an advocate of playing exactly by the rules – so as to detect when the rules are crap and so expediate writing better rules – rather than having a good GM/hero GM save the day by continually compensating for shitty rules (and that’s ignoring the rational thought bypass as an issue, for now). But if it’s AD&D, I haven’t played with all the add ons that were brought out for that. I haven’t even played it with the weapons vs armour table!
Super excited to hear this news! My friends and I love the series, and I’ve already preordered The Great Ordeal. Congratulations on finally getting some forward momentum.
If you needed any more evidence that publishing is crippled distribution.
Regarding “Crash Space”
Hi Scott. I’m curious, what kind of response has Crash Space received? I’ve done a couple of Google searches to see if there are reviews or other pieces written in response to the story, but I haven’t come across any.
As I mentioned before, I really liked the story. I think it is a great, provocative piece and I want it to get some attention. Normally, I would buy copies to give to friends, but academic journals are just too expensive. I’ve been trying to spread the word by telling people to check to see if their library has access to the journal.
The circulation time is a lot slower in academia. I dunno, otherwise. And as always, all recommendations are much appreciated. I have to kick this furnace back to life!
Great news Scott! Thank you for keeping us up to date. I see that The Great Ordeal is available for pre-order, but only in hardback. Do you have any information about whether it will be available for kindle the same time as hardback?
Thanks, davidma. It certainly made for a stress free holiday–probably doubled my intoxicant consumption. I’ll let you know about the ebook status as soon as I find out.