The Four Goads (at the Crossroads)
by rsbakker
So I finished the first draft of The Unholy Consult 3:14 pm, yesterday afternoon. Things are feeling kinda surreal – it’s been a helluva long haul, man! There’s still a tremendous amount of work to be done. I have exhaustive rewrites planned for a couple of the plot-lines – about a quarter of the book all told. But for whatever reason I became insanely meticulous fleshing out the master plot, and even though it remains uber-generic all the way down, I’m pretty sure nothing like it has been written before. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, I don’t know. The best I can do is take it to the limit of my abilities and nothing more.
I remember having lunch with Guy Kay and Peter Halasz in Toronto not long after the publication of The Darkness that Comes Before. After explaining my ridiculous multi-volume blueprint for the series, Guy earnestly began trying to talk me out of the notion. He started listing all the notorious foibles of the high fantasy long form, how the plot-lines ‘bush,’ how the quality of subsequent installments drops off as the author’s enthusiasm inevitably wanes, and how it was simply impossible, given the sheer creaking weight of all the verbiage that has come before, to provide a climax that was anything but anti-climactic…
“But imagine,” I replied, “a multi-volume series as tight as single book!”
I’ve been imagining ever since. I already had a preposterously long list of goals: to avoid sentimentalism in all its nefarious guises; to portray a truly septic ancient world, one as steeped in bigotry and brutality as was our own; to portray psychologically realistic characters; to sustain a lyrical scriptural tone; and to resist ideological anachronisms – to challenge rather than pander to the inevitable moral pieties of certain readers.
To these I added four more Goads:
1) Stick to the original cast.
2) Strive to make each book better than the last.
3) Resist the urge to ‘go baroque.’
4) Write the conclusion that everything preceding demands.
Or in sum, stay true to my original vision.
It was sometime after the publication of The Warrior-Prophet, I think, that I realized how my first list had pretty much doomed me to be a genre outlier, a cult as opposed to commercially successful writer. The Attack of the Femtards was something I had anticipated, even courted – but unfortunately moral notoriety doesn’t make for many book sales! (Quick word of advice: If you ever have to defend yourself from a morality-based character attack, be funny, because actual arguments, no matter how nifty, will avail you nothing). Given that the whole point of importing ‘literary’ complexities into epic fantasy was to reach out, to short circuit the way technology allows us to spontaneously group ourselves according to patterns of cultural consumption, to cleanse the incipient heretics from our reading lists, I see the series as largely an artistic failure so far.
And I’ve found myself making a mantra of the Four Goads, telling myself that if I could follow through on my nutbar vision then I will have done something too peculiar to easily dismiss for reasons of righteousness or taste – a series that demands careful consideration, love or hate. The idea was to write something monstrous, a kind of Lovecraftian code that I could upload into the collective mainframe, where it would hunch upon so many borders as to become a crossroads, a passage between otherwise incompatible empires.
Well… It is monstrous! And for this lonely reader at least, it cleaves true as true to its founding vision.
For all of you gnashing and rending for the wait, I apologize. Your chance to judge will come soon enough!
Best piece of news ot the year!!!! Down here in Argentina, your biggest fan. Congratulations!
Thank you, Feanor!
I just finished reading TUC. Wow. Congratulations. It’s preturbingly GREAT. Countdown for TSTCNBN?
Amazing post Highlighting the points you wanted to meke with TSA. And amazing that the first draft of TUC is done, Scott! I’m eagerly looking forward to it. Since you mention G.G. Kay, what do you think of “The Fionavar Tapestry” if you have read it? Besides TSA, it is the only other series heavily influenced by the Silmarillion and the Tolkien Legendarium in general. And so far (I’m reading Fionavar’s third book book right now), I think that Guy’s trilogy is overall a failure, even though a literary sofisticated failure with important implication with the development of Fantasy (I can’t help but see many similarities between Fionavar and The Wheel Of Time, for instance).
You and Kay drew some ingredients from the same stew, but arrived to completely different conclusions. I Your series is, at least in potency, much more successful I rework old themes and tools that the Oxford Professor used in his time.
Sorry for the garbled post, cheers from Italy
Massimiliano
I read FT when I was a kid, and loved it, even though the Tolkien yardstick loomed so tall back then. A few years back someone sent me their MA thesis using PoN and FT to track post-nationalism in fantasy, and it really got me thinking how situated fantasy writing is… I don’t think Kay would have been able to publish FT if it were even remotely as anti-sentimental as PoN.
Thanks Massimiliano!
Between yourself and Kay and Erikson/Esslemont, Canada has got a stranglehold on my favorite fantasy right now. Been a Kay fan since I was maybe 13 and read FT for the first time, read everything he’s done since, read TDTCB just before TTT came out and then someone turned me on to the wonderful world of Malaz as well. Keep it up Scott, I cannot wait.
Fionavar Tapestry remains to this day one of my top 10 series.
It’s great incredible charm, the feel of the world and the overall plot, while “generic” has some really nice elements to it as well. Plus it’s well written as usual by Kay.
Scott, thanks sticking to your vision. The series has been a helluva ride. “This is your brain. This is your brain on TUC. Any questions?”
I might live to regret it still! Sometimes you have to bless the torpedoes… 😉
Thanks, Dave.
Hello Mr Bakker,
I appreciate your novels… maybe you should put a ‘disclaimer’ or something. 🙂
Looking forward to reading TUC, I’ve been waiting for it. It’s a nasty world with nasty people living in it. I’ve learned to separate the author from his writing, maybe your detractors should do the same.
Regards from Montreal
I’m on my third reread of the series, so this news couldn’t come at a better time!
Years ago, I would reread books to stay within my “safe” zone. Nowadays, this doesn’t happen, except for your books. I find myself, every 6 to 9 months with an urge to parse through the pages, looking for more hints and concepts that escaped me the first time.
Thank you for challenging the fantasy status quo and for writing this series!
Thank you, Dan. Keep thumping the tub!
” I see the series as largely an artistic failure so far.”
I kinda get this, even though it’s a bit early to tell what the long range impact will be. You refer to Lovecraft and his work didn’t really take off until August Derleth got a hold of it. And Derleth was a hack. But he was a market savvy hack, and while he completely misunderstood what he was pandering, he introduced more and more people into Lovecraft. Unfortunately, the legacy remains today and most people think “stuffed Cthulhu plushies” when they think HPL, not “philosophical critique of man’s place in the universe vis-a-vis the increasingly dismal revelations of science”.
The nice thing is that I can enjoy it at both levels. Maybe your Derleth will materialize and I’ll be able to get a pair of Aurang&Aurax stuffed slippers to compliment my Cthulhu ones.
As for getting some Bible-thumper in Mississippi to enjoy your books… yeah, that’s probably not gonna happen.
Although on the old forum a fellow once wrote the tale of being arrested in Alabama for arguing with someone who called TTT the ‘devil’s work’ at a Walmart!
But you’re dead on about the ‘market savvy’ thing. I personally credit this blog with scaring away thousands of potential readers…
I agree that the long-term impact has yet to be measured. I’ve seen even people who dislike your work claim that it will be influential. I know it’s influenced me!
Poor bugger! 😉
I’ve actually got a story doing the rounds that is based loosely on my own layman’s grasp of BBT-like topics. If it gets picked up by some market or other I’ll let you know!
It’s proving a story-I-would-write-had-I-a-minute-to-spare goldmine for me. Like a whole unexplored narrative dimension behind all of PKD’s themes…
Hey, I’m from Mississippi. We aren’t all bad, or entirely backwards. Though, I can’t quite say reading this series makes you “forward” haha. This series is definitely one of my favorites, if not for its horribly graphic, beautifully abhorring syntax and description, then it would be for its ABILITY TO BRING QUESTIONS, and cause all these discussions in the first place. I may be from Mississippi, but these books are powerful, whether they are acknowledged publicly or not. I can’t deny that, nor do I wish to. God, the Devil, Heaven, or Hell, they don’t apply to all of us down here in the Dirty. Some of us don’t know, and recognize we can’t know God’s will, if there is a God. Doubt and faith are the same, questions and answers are the same; a repeating cycle. Sorry, I just wanted to say your series, Mr. Bakker, has come far, even to the bastards here in Mississippi.
Keep ’em comin’.
(And, Jorge, haven’t you ever read Faulkner? Read it closely… So close you can feel Dewey Dell’s mammalian ludicrosities on your face.)
Scott, I should really be the target demographic for your work – and for a long time, I was. But as a behavioral scientist, I’ve become uncomfortable with your research; while a lot of your main points aren’t alien to me, you’ve screwed up so much peripheral stuff I think it’s started to detract from your project. I’m thinking in particular of the way you deploy evolutionary psychology.
And as a reader and critic, I’m really bothered by this retroactive attempt to cast the series as a challenge to blogs. It feels spiteful and personal. Your response to feminist criticism seems totally orthogonal to the lessons of the very psychology you’re trying to engage with: you’re eager to declare everyone else blinded by ingroup/outgroup biases, but then you drop ‘femtards’, a slur targeted towards activating those same ingroup/outgroup identities, and one that’s heavily identified with the ideological axis of Vox Day and his ilk.
You’re not achieving your goal of breaking up the echo-chamber effect because you’re sealing yourself into your own chamber. Please don’t become John Norman. Or Dave Sim!
Seth, speaking as a biologist, I don’t see where he’s messed up.
His arguments do not lean so heavily on evolutionary psychology (at least not of the Cosmides/Tooby vein) but rather on concrete discoveries in neuroscience.
I’m far more interested in your theoretical concerns than your moral diagnosis, I fear Seth. Besides, the relative slur count is now 2 vs what? A thousand? ‘Vox and his ilk’ absolutely adore Cracked Moon for good reason: she’s a recruiter’s dream!
Foot in mouth strikes again! The usual discussion has commenced elsewhere concerning the Femtards comment. Which is expected. Not sure why you obsess on this when there are so many other things one might obsess about without the predictable backlash/hand-wringing/contempt-instead-of-connection, but whatevs, you predicted this in any case and carried on as an experiment or confirmative experience (etc. etc.)
(Much) more importantly, good to hear about TUC. How long could you (roughly) predict those rewrites and edits , based on previous books? In other words, could we possibly expect a summer 2014 release?
My obsessions are nowhere near so practical, I fear. I guess I figured that great umbrage and pious fury would occasion this comment, wherein those who are holy would expound for the benefit of those in the shadow of genre temptation! Hark, Children of Westeros – Hark! Hear thee the appalling truth of Bakker’s countless iniquities!
I’m sure it was a lazy button to push. A cheap way to feel controversial.
“Hark, Children of Westeros – Hark! Hear thee the appalling truth of Bakker’s countless iniquities!”
I lol’d at this 🙂
“I will drag him to light, who is the dark mover behind this scene of iniquity.”
Great news Scott! Can’t wait to read it! 🙂
Thanks Lars! How’s life treating my main Dane? Keeping up with the hockey? Franks still gushes about kicking your ass (because it’s the only ass I think he’s kicked)!
Haha, I’m doing quite well! Starting my master’s thesis and before you know it I’ll be out there teaching kids the same bullshit I’ve been taught. Isn’t society wonderful?
To be honest I haven’t been keeping up that well on the hockey. But when I know when my next visit to Ontario will be I’ll be sure to practice. Don’t want to make it too easy for you guys :P!
Say hi to guys from me!
Congratulations Scott! I really enjoyed reading your fantasy books, but was even more fascinated having discovered this blog and reading your take (BBT paper) on the mind-body problem. Are you writing a thesis in parallel to the books?
Anyway, all the best from a fan, theoretical physicist and type-A materialist from Germany.
Thanks, Steers. Great handle, btw. I’ve completed all the posts that’ll be going into Through the Brain Darkly, and I’m hoping to find time to finally rewrite Light, Time and Gravity, so with any luck I’ll be loosing an ARMY OF TOTAL AND UTTER MADNESS upon the unsuspecting world.
Us Type A’s need to stick together, don’t you know. The world has been overrun by zombies!
Congrats, mantard!
Now I want to name a D&D character that…it does actually sound fantasy-esque!
What? What did you call me? You son-of-a…
Wait a tick. Wouldn’t you know, the shoe actually fits…
Thanks, Rog. When can we expect to see more of your novel?
Ah, my novel. *wistfully glances out the window, sighs bathetically*
Someday, my friend, someday! I did manage to get one chapter done this summer… A bit pathetic, but it’s something… and it’s quite the chapter, I think. (My namesake takes center stage at last! You might be surprised to hear that he’s only 15 years old at the time, and even younger when he’s introduced. But he’s still a bad-ass — with the soul of a poet!)
Following the death of Iain Banks I spent some time considering who my favorite living SFF author might be, evaluated in terms of whose work would feel the most tragic to go unfinished and you ended up on top.
I’m delighted that the first draft is finished. Whether your plot is unique or not your world and writing are unlike anything I’ve seen, and the balance you found between philosophizing and story progression in WLW felt perfect.
Above all else I hope you keep driving your Creative Ox with your four goads, without any concession–either granted to or directed against–to the would-be gadflies.
Well, then, thanks, Sriad. I will endeavour to live a bit longer!
If I ever were to keel ove
Hey Scott! Awesome. I check your blog every couple of days for this type of announcement, and this is great news! And I intend to forward the news to a friend who discusses the series with me. Keep going, Scott. Artistic failure seems pretty harsh. I find the series to be part of the scene- your showcased on PAt’s Fantasy Hotlist, you’ve been compared to GRRM, and you are found in book stores across the USA. That’s not too bad for artistic failure. And besides, sometimes art needs a little time to age. Plenty of artists across various mediums have had issues like this. So, pick up that pen and keep writing fantastically disgusting sranc acts and eye-crossingly deep thoughts in the heads of tortured wizards and soldiers. We’ll keep buying them. By the way….what does Sranc taste like?
Thanks, Justin. People are almost always gobsmacked to learn that I’m something of a pessimist, but for whatever reason I have always had faith in this story – far more so than in my abilities as a writer. Everyone once in a while some day-dreaming fool is gifted with the image of something genuinely iconic. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure this is as close as I’ll ever get.
“Four Revelations” holds the answer to your final question…
Which of course begs the question, once Earwa is out of your system entirely and BBT is laying waste to the philosophical landscape, what will you work on next?
Are there more books after The Unholy Consult?
How long is The Unholy Consult (word count, chapter count) in this first draft?
Is it longer than previous volumes?
Will there be an appendix included with The Unholy Consult, as there was with The Thousandfold Thought?
Will you be sending the rest of Chapter One to Pat soon?
What’s the name of your favorite new character to write into a scene in The Unholy Consult?
LOL I hope RSB answers all of these 😉 Glad to hear the news Mr. Bakker, like Dan Slack above I’m always pulled back into your works. I can’t seem to find another series to compare with. It seems like all of the books I read are appetizers to TUC. To put it frankly, the second apocalypse is my meth and I’m always chasing the same high!!! Geesh I need to take a break from my breaking bad marathon…
Thanks, Ross. Just steer clear that bloody season finale!
My new favourite is Malowebi.
Yes. I owe him an apology email first. I’m not sure if I’ll begin the rewrite with it – there’s a few middling details I need to iron out first. I have to wait see. I decided to the day off and get loaded yesterday, so I really don’t have any plan of attack. Just a headache.
I want there to be, but this needs to be settled with my publishers.
Very much so.
It is almost exactly 300 000 words as it stands.
Yes, but I can’t really comment on them. TUC wraps all the arcs established through the series thus far – brings me to the end of my original story idea, way back when. If I were to keel over tomorrow, the mortician would have to use forceps and wire to wipe the shit-eating grin from my face.
Even MORE intrigued based on these answers. Anyway, thanks again for making my week, Scott!
Scott,
Fantastic news and thank you. I must admit my passion for TPB has waned over the last year (although im an inveterate lurker at the second apocalypse). I am interested in BBT but do not have the background (and perhaps intellectual chops) to fully grasp it and some of the accompanying philosophy discussions that have taken place here. However, on the bright side I recommend your work constantly in both fiction and BBT forms. If i read it i enough, if i engage in enough wiki plunges i will understand. 🙂
Anyway, id like this to be something other than unadulterated praise but whatever. Cant wait for TUC.
Thanks, Rots. Keep thumping that tub – the books might crawl out of their pigeonhole someday! As for the craziness here at TPB, it’s just theory beating up on theory, more like multiple people farting in an elevator than anything substantial.
The Attack of the Femtards sounds like a great flick
Unless you happen to be the male lead…
If only Russ Meyers were still alive to make that movie.
We would need to find a different lead.
You could sell out entirely and still not manage to enter mainstream culture. Somehow being good at having pot luck part of artistic success now? Really?
Also ‘femtards’ aught to be offensive to say due to a combination of its ambiguity and, sans any much context, contentiousness. Sure, people fill it in however they reflexivly do, but man, to set up that honey trap, it’s kinda of a….well, never mind me, I’m just being niggardly…
Congrats on the progress, Scott! You might not need congrats as the story will just come out, but screw it, congrats anyway! Though for some reason I thought you had already finished the first draft and had been working on the second – could have sworn that was announced awhile ago…I’m curious about the writing process and sort of want to nail down what has actually happened?
Thanks, Callan. You’re entirely right about the lack of context: We all know that I mean something quite specific, but others are apt to think is just confirms my status as a misogynistic pig who thinks women are better than men. As for the femtard trolls themselves, they’ll just see opportunity to flame, the dreary way trolls always do.
my status as a misogynistic pig who thinks women are better than men.
lolwut?
You have trouble even writing it the other way around! …So that’s why the book has taken so long! Aha! Spend half the day writing women are better than men, then the other half attempting to rewrite that…
Still don’t like ambiguous phrases though – you could as much fill in a possitive where there isn’t one being said, as much as you could fill in a negative where there isn’t one being said.
Thanks for the reply, Scott!
Scott!!!
This is wonderful news. But before I allow myself that sigh of relief,I must immediately grapple with the disclaimers mentioned.
You’ve mentioned a significant block of rewriting lies ahead, but also say we will get the judge soon enough?
When Scott, when? Anticipation for this book is going through the roof. When you think this book will be on shelves? Have you had any contact with the publishers on a likely release date? I remember there used to be a 12 months lead time between handing in the manuscript for one of the previous books and actual Canada/Us publication.
Should we expect this book in Fall 2014?
Good to hear from you Mith! The only way I can see this being ready for summer 2014 is if my publishers decide to split the thing. This is the impasse at the moment: the book is looking too big. There really is nothing more I can say until everything is sorted out. I do want you to know that I’ve taken many of the criticisms you’ve made of the previous books quite seriously in writing this… Although not identical to my vision of the series, yours has been close enough to alert me to a number of the ways I’ve strayed – enough to convince me to let the book write itself, rather than shoehorn it into anyone else’s schedule.
In fact, I might just decide to blame you personally for the reason why it’s taken me so long!
Do you see the resolution being that 300k can be reduced to WLW’s size (which was what, 230k or so?)? Why don’t they just alter the typesetting so that the 1.3 spacing from the previous two is single-spaced, if paper costs are so astronomical or whatever?
I mean, I know you like to shave as close to the bone, but 300k isn’t *that* long, ffs. WLW has about the same amount of pages as Jordan’s Shadow Rising, which was 100k longer, and the comparison is made by ‘crowding’ the words on the page. Sure, you don’t sell like RJ did even back in ’94, but I can’t see production costs of ink being that prohibitive.
(in other words, 300k is like a juicy steak for Earwa, and I’m having a hard time understanding the recent industry-flogged “shorter is better” mentality).
(edit: maybe I was wrong? Shadow Rising was 397,000, with extended margins, over 40 lines a page, single-space, at just around 700 pages first edition hardback; WLW, at what.. 220-250 k, was 596 pages with narrower margins, 1.3-1.4 spacing. Just not understanding the economic pressure here… *is* ink prohibitive?)
Scott!
You do me tremendous honour man. I’m happy to have contributed in *any* way really. I have to say that everything I have seen and heard about the final book sounds great, and the atrocity tales have added flavour to Earwa as well.
TUC is expected to be the major pay-off for many, and from what you are saying, that is absolutely what it’s going to be ( and surely it will not be to everyone’s tastes, but it never is, like many I’m just excited to see what you’ve come up with). I’m happy to hear that TUC is the end of the originally conceived SA overarching storyline.
The idea of a split might sound more horrendous than it actually is. If the publishers woulld be ok with printing the two books back-to-back in a short timeframe then there’s not much pain felt for fans, and you wouldn’t need to reduce the size of the book too drastically. On the other hand, perhaps the current manuscript can be paired down enough for it to be published as a single volume. There’s a significant financial benefit to publishing two books as well ( hey if you’ve done this huge amount of work, you might as well benefit it from it ;)). Anyway, I’m sure you’ll make the right decision.
300,000 words is quite an achievement and sounds like a proper cap to the series.
-Mith
contragts! Seeing that the chances that the 2nd sequel gets published in french is close to none, I’ve bought the books in English and plan on restarting from 0 so hopefully it’ll be out by the time I catch up 😀
Imho you are the best epic/dark fantasy author I know of (to the point where reading other fantasy has become boring alltogether :/) and just knowing that there will be more is rewarding.
Thanks, SA. Like I say in the post, my hope is that the strength of this conclusion will propel the series up a level or two. And if so, hopefully a French translation deal for TAE will be in the works. My agent plans to flog it hard in Frankfurt, anyway!
After what’s been a looooong summer, this is good news indeed! So by the tone of the post I gather this is it, the grand finale? I know in the past you have mentioned the possibility of a book or two to follow this one, but this post would suggest otherwise.
Thanks, litg. The end of TAE is the end of the tale as I originally conceived it decades ago. All the plot threads from the two trilogies are cinched into a kind of Gordian knot (I fear you’ll have to wait to see what I mean). Fate had forbidden any mention of the two books I have planned after this.
Huh. Now I’m even MORE confused 😉 And intrigued! Well done. Can’t wait!
“Fate had forbidden any mention of the two books I have planned after this.”
It sounds like what comes after determines what comes before.
Great news! I shall look forward to reading the finished book next year, here’s to hoping it’ll be out by summer. 🙂
Thanks Nicolai. I’ll be posting pub details when I actually have them!
So fucking jacked for this, Scott. Congratulations! I think about TUC basically every day. You are a huge inspiration to aspiring writers like me. Can’t wait to see the final product!
Thanks, Mike! The artist in me is humbled and gratified, while the pragmatist in me cries, “Are you fucking nuts?”
Ah, but you should know better than anyone that we have no control over that which moves our souls. See what you did?? 🙂
Yes, completely nuts! You’ve got balls, and I admire that deeply. You’ve stuck to a vision that others have told you to abandon. You wrote your grand tale despite the potential “pitfalls.” We need stories like this. And while many concepts are derivative, as in all fiction, I believe your work is the most original series in recent memory. Whole greater than parts, etc.
I identify with you because you know what it’s like to be haunted by your story–to the point of irritation and exasperation. I identify with that feeling. And to see someone push through the blood, sweat, tears, and bullshit to the other side truly is an inspiration to someone like me, who, some days, only wants this obnoxious story–this infection–to go away so I can live my life. But you and I both know, that will never happen!
Congrats, Bakker!
I appreciate a blog featuring some writer’s craft (though, I’m always working the BBT stuff). And I’m glad to hear about TTBD and LTG getting the feature makeover.
Take a break, spend some time with family and friends. Or write [i]Semantica[/i] or [i]Disciple[/i] real quick ;).
I think Through the Brain Darkly with tour guide Disciple Manning would make for some interesting reading.
Good news Scott!
You’ve often said that you refuse to divulge the name of the final sub-series as it constitutes a spoiler. Will the name of the final series be clear by the end of THE UNHOLY CONSULT?
This is incredible news, I haven’t read anything so brilliant in years and I’m looking forward to reading them again once the series is completed. To your detractors I say: if you don’t like it, just don’t read it.
Great news!!!!I guess autumn 2014 is the most optimistic option for publication.A year from now…..but there might be a new Atrocity Tale in the meantime right?Also, i don’t know if you can answer that, is there a new POV in the book or are they exactly the same with TWLW?Anyway congratulations for the effort i am sure the result will be amazing!
Fifth goad: The Logos is without beginning or end.
Congratulations on finishing your draft man. I can’t wait to read this book!
I loaned the earlier books to a few buddies, and they nearly crucified me for leaving them hanging at the end of The White Luck Warrior. We anxiously await TUC.
Congrats on finishing the series while sticking to your vision. So… does this count as writing what you know?
Trolls trolling trolls. Sorry.
Scott, not sure I agree with your self-analysis.
The kind of comment you made sometimes about being a “midlist writer” made me think of a comment of Esmenet where she describes Kellhus talking as if one moment he’s too close, and one moment far away, with the rest of people being suspended at some point in the middle.
That’s a kind of image that encapsulates well the series you’re writing. Heights and depths. Those are at least goals you set to explore in the books. There’s a very sharp intent, and these aren’t open books with some vague themes the reader then spins any way he wants.
But you somewhat overestimate the average reader. By living at that middlepoint, most people have their interests gravitating around that same point. That’s why a lot of successful fantasy is just exotic familiarity, and that’s simply why some of those depths in your books get easily defined as “wankery”. Why should one care? Because it’s fundamental stuff. But being fundamental means being just too deep from that middle point. Too deep, too high, too self-absorbed. Just too far from the middle point, common sense, and practicality of daily life. Too far from the compromise that makes people work in their actual life, like cogs in a machine.
So, by constitution, your work speaks to a cult. Not by failure. The failure was maybe in the notion of infiltrating a genre to use its strengths and then divert the attention on something else. But as a virus it’s just way too easy to spot. It’s not well-disguised at all.
I mean, you don’t even seem to *try*. You’ve made this too personal and sincere, and not some thing meant to please everyone while cleverly working in the background to hijack everything. Where do you think is the part meant to seduce readers? I don’t think you tried.
(and with this I don’t meant that “us” readers who actually do follow you are “better”, or “smarter” or whatever else. We’re just different, I guess. Dislocated from that middlepoint where we’re also meant to be. Somewhat looking miserable like Achamian in the books. Pity us.)
You’d kinda expect a cross roads to be at the mid of a list, wouldn’t you…
Stumbling over your blog, reading BBT, then Neuropath, I was sufficiently impressed to go ahead and give your other books a chance, despite my initial scepticism to the genre (I haven’t touched a fantasy book since I was 14, 32 now). It’s been a great read so far. And I’m saying this as an unlikely fan, in terms of the kinds books I usually pick up. Guess you swayed me. Anyway, very glad your books found their way into my echo chamber.
It. Is. Alive!
I’m extremely glad that TUC has made it into some kind of cohesive unit. I’m sure there are at least a few of us left guarding the gates. Those of us that still dream the dreams of The Second Apocalypse. But the way is so short…. The World forgets, yet we, the few, remain to see this through to its inevitably horrific conclusion.
And one last thing: Don’t you dare die before you finish writing the whole series. I don’t know if I can go through that kind of trauma again…. ahhh Frank why did you leave us.
As someone whose intersectional anti-oppressive inclinations began in radical feminism and anarchism, and whose brother is deaf-blind, I’m not a huge fan of your use of the “femtard” portmanteau for a heuristic ecosystem of “reasons”. Ableism strikes a nerve with me very close to home, but as I have a mother and sisters and friends who identify female, it’d be hard for me to say with a straight face that feminism isn’t, perhaps, among the closest to home issues for me as a male privilege enjoying individual.
That said, you’ve seen and responded to my comments now and again and know that my hunger and lust for more of your writing could fill millions of starving, tumescent Srancs with jealous rage. So with that (entirely subjective to my illusory cognition’s own anti-oppressive tendencies) frown firmly in place, I’m equally as impressed and excited at the prospect of concluding the Aspect-Emperor phase of your truly stellar high fantasy cum nihilist/realist/post-intentional sci-fi epic artwork as I am unimpressed and deflated by your male privilege/able-minded privilege flag waving in the realms of dismissive slang jury-rigging!
Congrats sir – I am glad you are persevering through what must be a challenging expression. I have to say that to me ‘White Luck’ was a new height for your craft and that I’m anticipating this next book of yours quite a bit.
Also do not fret over your work’s impact – it will not sync with a majority of people because it is hard – but, for those of us who enjoy the depth of your tale and the introspection it demands, we also have sway in the world and the seeds that you sow will transform and propagate.
Congratulations Scott! Must feel great.
I can’t wait.
I realize I’m late to the party, but this is the best news I’ve heard all week! Congratulations, Scott! For what it’s worth, it’s great you’re staying true to your original vision as much as possible. That vision is so entertaining and thought inspiring that I’ve reread PoN, TJE, and WLW numerous times. I can’t wait to dive into TUC! I honestly believe your work will stand out, in some way, many years from now.
Aww man, this is such awesome news. I’m so stoked to see that you’re not only finished, but that you’re so happy and excited about how you finished. You’ve managed to get me even more fired up about the Unholy Consult, and I can’t wait to read about Aurang and Aurax getting their final freak on.
Yeesss!!! To the coffers, Boys!!!!!!
Congratulations, great news. Looking forward to reading the words and sentences that survive down to the final edit. 300k words is a huge book, out of curiosity, how much (if any) trim do you estimate to do before it leaves your hands? It would be a treat to see a post on the process up ahead. Way up ahead, when the aforementioned process is in hindsight. No pressure.
In this case, I should get cracking on a thorough re-read of TJE and TWLW. Never thought I’d be posting this with such excitement on your blog when I opened The Darkness That Comes Before with mild curiosity 1 year ago. Congratulations from Romania Scott, can hardly wait!
Sweet – cant wait and screw the femtards do they not read the stuff they criticize? Three names stand out to me Serwa she is a bad ass.Mimara who is one of the toughest characters in the story a total survivor and esmenet, wow what a woman beautiful ,intelligent ,and true grit which shows from the darkrkness comes before all the way to the present in whiteluck warrior.She is outsmarting everyone.How can she not when she is married to a dunyain and her brother-n- law is one as well ……HELLO FEMTARDS HELLO
Man, I’ve been missing Theliopa a lot so I’m glad to hear you haven’t morphed into GRRM when we weren’t looking. I realize she’s a relatively peripheral character to like but you don’t have many likeable characters (which isn’t an indictment, but I suspect you know that) and something about her blunted affect is endearing. Her little brother is FREAKING TERRIFYING though.
I also miss your magic scenes. You have very epic magic scenes. I especially liked that scene with the witches in the last book. I think it was the last book, it’s been a while. I’m also curious as fuck to know what the ramifications of copious nonman ash consumption is on an unborn fetus. Can’t imagine it’s FDA approved.
Also, did you know there’s a theory about how Kellhus performed that miracle with Serwe’s heart? It goes that he somehow tore out her heart while they were tied to that tree, without leaving an obvious hole. Since there was a dearth of pockets at the time he stowed the heart in the only place he logically could – his ass. After they untied him he somehow retrieved the heart from aforementioned orifice without anyone noticing (I think he was under a blanket or something at the time?) and somehow set it on fire. He may or may not have had some paraffin and a match up there too.
I… find it hard to swallow. Mostly because the mental picture is so very, very hilarious.
I… find it hard to swallow.
That’s what he said!
you realize that’s a joke son, a joke I say.
Kellhus pulled it out of his ass. Common idiomatic phrase in English.
Considering the discussion has been going on for at least 60-something pages the group must have an incredibly low threshold for the funnies of bathroom humour.
Unless you’re joking now. In which case… carry on.
This has been one of my top awaited books for years now. I’ve actually held off on reading The White Luck Warrior, even though I have the physical copy on my shelf and the digital copy on my Kindle, until The Unholy Consult comes out. I’ve been recommending your books to every serious fantasy fan that I meet for years, and happily that’s turned into a few more sales of at least the original trilogy. I have no doubt that the book will be amazing and reading this blog entry was a true thrill that brightened up my day with delicious anticipation.
I feel like you’re right about this blog being almost anti-marketing for the books. I appreciate the philosophy you inject into your series, as an added dimension to a lyrically-written dark fantasy series. I’m interested in philosophy at a comparatively simplistic level, but it’s not a passion of mine, and the writing on your blog often jumps quickly into the deep end of that pool.
Thus, I get my news about your fiction from Pat’s Fantasy Hotlist and other, similar sources, because I can’t bring myself to wade through thousands of words of philosophy for the occasional nugget of an update about the thing you do that’s actually interesting to me. But that’s all fine. You’re a whole person and you don’t need to limit your public interests to suit mine. I wish I had a better way to just filter the content I care about from the stuff I don’t, but that’s fine. I can just keep reading Pat’s site and trust that he’s tight enough with you that I’ll get the updates.
So why “anti-marketing”? Sigh. Here we go.
Well, as someone uninformed about what goes on in the majority of your blog, reading the word “femtards” was disappointing and distasteful. Reading through the comments thread, I get the gist that you’ve probably had some war of words with people who are upset at the treatment of women in your books and can’t separate a critique from an endorsement. Okay. But because your blog is so stuffed with dense philosophy talk, I don’t read it, so I’m not familiar with this history. I don’t know how justified you are in saying that. I don’t know if I really think any justification would be enough for such a sort of careless crassness. Further down, the comments themselves start to get less considered than I feel your original post was, and it starts to feel even more uncomfortable for me.
I know that’s not an original thought, and you’re smart enough that you probably anticipated this reaction when you first wrote the phrase, but there it is. It worked. I feel a little offended, a little disappointed. You, as a person, are a little bit lessened in my mind’s eye, and by association, your books are as well. I’m invested enough in your series that I’m still going to read it, and I’ll buy the books, and recommend them, but I might recommend them alongside the phrase, “yeah, the author’s kind of a weird philosophical nutcase, and says some crazy stuff on his blog.” That’s an overstatement, but I feel like the exaggeration is almost necessary, to protect my own reputation.
Let’s say that I’m recommending these books to a friend at work. Let’s say that she reads them and enjoys them, and, as is the norm these days, looks for more information online, and finds your blog. Let’s say she then sees you and people in your comments flinging around “femtard” with abandon, and gets offended. If I haven’t offered the qualification above, there’s a chance she’ll associate that with me, and then her estimation of me will be slightly lessened. I don’t want that, so now I have to temper my recommendations.
It’s not a huge deal, but it starts to put you in the rarified company of those actors who everyone knows is kind of crazy, like Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson or something. People still watch their movies, but there are a few who choose not to because of their distaste for whatever they’ve heard about the actor on the news or wherever. I’m not saying that writing “femtard” is the equivalent of driving around drunk and slurring off racist religious conspiracy theories. It’s definitely not. It’s just a tiny little step in that direction.
Again, I’m sure that you anticipated this reaction, but there it is. I had it.
Isaac,
The books have in the last few years been attacked viciously by one or two feminist review blogs whose main interest is in determining how much they liked how women are portrayed in a book or film. They did not opt for normal discourse, to put it lightly, and their posts have led to quite vehement discussions over the years, with Scott also explaining what the point of the books was, what he was specifically trying to do with his portrayal of women in Earwa etc. This fell on deaf ears and no form of agreement or mutual respect was ever achieved. It’s understandable that there are still some hard feelings, and for me personally, expressing those feelings by referring to these people as femtards does not bother me one bit. If you show zero respect for someone and initiate a public attack on someone on your blog, you really can’t expect to get any back.
It in no way influences how I feel about the author, or the books, or on whether or not I would recommend reading the books themselves to another person.
The best news I have heard this year!
Obliged, From Alaska!
Congratulations! This has been an incredible journey, and even though the books have not achieved the kind of commercial success you hoped for, there is still an audience that can appreciate them for the deep, original story they provide. And hey, as far as awards and viewers go, The Wire – the greatest show ever filmed – was a total disaste, but it eventually got recognition. I eagerly await the conclusion to TAE trilogy. And thank you for not compromising your vision. There are a thousand Lord of the Ring knockoffs. There’s only one sequence of novels you’ve written.
As a non-english reader I always had hard time trying to understand your passages while reading the original (first 3 books I read in Russian, translated), but despite that I must admit TUC is probably the most anticipated book for me of all the time (even Martin’s “Winds” on the second place, haha).
Scott,
Great news. The PoN series has certainly made waves for me and my social circle. I’m a neuroscience junkie and philosophy grad dropout (as well as gaming nut) – when I first heard about PoN and a little bit of your background… I was instantly interested for obvious reasons!
You did *not* disappoint. Tell me if I’m wrong – while you’re paying homage to the form, don’t you think the directions you take with the story overall (and yes I realize for us it’s not concluded) does more deconstruction thematically than anything in “fantasy” in the last thirty-years. At least in my opinion.
I’ve rarely been this challenged by fiction – you did a marvelous job. I’m really looking forward to the conclusion. Any chance you’ll do a “Silmarillion” style book of the First Apocalypse? Those passages in both of your trilogies were… for lack of a better way of putting it: ASTOUNDINGLY good. They cast such a glaringly dark shadow over the present narrative of the books that I’m curious to know if we’ll ever see a standalone accounting of the First Apocalyse? (I’m sure you get this asked all the time.)
Lastly – this series needs an RPG for it. Any interest in developing something for Earwa for table-top gamers? (Fantasy Craft would capture Earwa savagely and beautifully)
Just a thought.
I’ve been an avid fan since TDTCB first appeared on shelves almost 10 years ago, and bought every successive book the day the hardcover came out (I even managed to get one several days before the official release because the store received an early shipment and I looked excited/Sad Puppy enough for them to sell me a copy early). I recommend them to friends with an enthusiasm and regularity that is probably kind of annoying. I may be a month late on hearing the news that the first draft of TUC is done, but it’s still great news to hear.
For many years, I have quietly followed the fandom across forums and blogs, preferring to read, rather than comment. I remember the shitshow that was the Feminist Blogpocalypse. So even knowing the context, my heart sank when I read “Attack of the Femtards.” It’s not always easy being a feminist lady-fan of PoN and TSA (you’re always defending either your feminism or your fandom, which is why I normally refrain from commenting) and phrases like femtard, even when directed at a specific group of people, don’t do much to make women feel welcome. I can only imagine how female readers not familiar with the Feminist Blogpocalypse took that line. I don’t know if any of your favorite authors have ever said anything that made you feel distinctly unliked and uncomfortable, but dammit, it fucking sucks.
You have female fans (feminist ones, even!). We may be smaller in number than male fans, but please don’t unintentionally exclude us because you still like to push the buttons of some jerks on the internet who yelled at you a few years ago. The “Femtards” don’t care you’re calling them that- it just reinforces their view that you’re a misogynist. The only people you hurt or insult with comments like that are your female fans.
Thanks Heather. The comment assumes a familiarity with the nastiness of that debate that many, male or female, likely don’t possess – you’re right. I wrote it probably knowing many would mistakenly assume I was generalizing, and that the parties I was actually referring to would simply use it to ornament their spite. Part of me was simply assuming that my name was already mud, I think. And I have this self-destructive streak that has left scars along the entirety of my life. But the fact remains, bigotry turns on moral confidence – of all stripes – not just the one the other guy happens to be wearing. Piety is my enemy. And if this world goes up in flames dollars to donuts moral outrage will be the primary accelerant. Since I’m foolish enough to think this series will break wide open at some point, I actually don’t think it’s a bad thing at all to be demonized, simply because it’ll serve to make the debate that much more incendiary. The question of my ‘moral essence’ shouldn’t be easy. A male chauvinist who genuinely believes that women are biologically superior to men – I could live with that on my tombstone.
So I guess I’m saying that I’m not entirely sane… or that difficulty is simply part of the package. I often wish I weren’t this way, particularly now that I have a child. I think I’d certainly be wealthier, and her future would be more secure. If you think about it, this blog is bloody designed to scare readers away!
Thanks for replying, Scott. Your blog isn’t quite as off-putting as you think it is (though I’m not sure if you find that encouraging or disappointing!). I wouldn’t say it scares people away, despite the terrifyingly dense philosophical posts and occasional controversial statements. The fact that you participate in conversations with readers is pretty awesome, and makes it feel more accessible.
I get where you’re coming from regarding self-destructive streaks. I like to think of it in myself as “acting against my own self-interests because fuck-you.” So when I end up shouting “Stop shooting yourself in the foot!” at the computer screen, I have to remind myself pot-kettle-black, and such.
Being provocative or controversial isn’t a bad thing at all. But demonization? Where does that leave room for discourse? The portrayal of women in the SFF genre is incendiary enough, without you pouring gasoline all over yourself and running into the thick of it. While that may be satisfying (speaking of spite..), it doesn’t create productive or even *interesting* debate.
I’m going to hazard a guess and say it’s more a matter of difficulty being part of the package, than your sanity being questionable!
Using the term femtard is not going to hurt you with women in general. There have been a number of polls recently showing that most women do not want to be identified as feminists. Women recognize that feminists are man hating ideologues and don’t want to be considered the same.
However, Team Woman is not going to give up any of the privileges that the feminists help them acquire. If you were to come out for spending as much money on men’s and boy’s health issues as women’s, then you would anger the average woman.
For your work to get wider acceptance the masculine will have to come back into fashion. In the democratic west this will only occur if women determine they need men again. The good news is that might happen. The bad news is it will only happen after a major financial crisis.
As a long time fan our your work, I have all the books in hard cover, I want to say congratulations and I look forward to reading it in the not to distant future.
If I were one for regret, I’d beat myself up right about now for not being the cool kid who would forever get mad (that is to say, imaginary) props on account of being the first one to comment on this update. It would have been so easy – I had the chance and blew it, along with some black semen.
Speaking of, I’ll regale you all by sharing a feeling I got during Kellhus confrontation with Inchoroi twin whoever. It may be nothing, but the instantaneous thought I had during this passage…
“Kellhus knew not the length or beam of its inhuman intelligence, but he knew it counted grievances. All souls, almost out of necessity, armed themselves with arguments and accusations of misunderstanding. A circle, after all, could have only one centre.”
…was:
“Dear members of The Consult,
You are, one and all, well and truly fucked;
and not in the way you’d probably just enjoy,
but in the figurative sense.
Take care now, my dear sirs mongoloids”
Knowing Bakker, though, I’m almost certainly way off base.
Hi Scott!
Your Prince of Nothing/Aspect Emperor series is very unique.
It is one of the best Fantasy/SF series I ever read.
Thank you very much!
Some aspects remind me of Frank Herbert’s Dune, maybe because it also features a messianic main character, an emperor, some elaborate alien world and witches.
I have to think more about it, but Dune somehow pops up in my mind if I reach for a
similiar reading experience.
The David Lynch movie of Dune I saw at age 14 and did not like it, but every time I saw it at a later point in my life, I started to like it more and more.
I think David Lynch could make a great film out of your books!
But I should rather whish that Tolkien Director Peter Jackson or at least HBO
picks it up, so that you might get a deserved big pile of cash instead! 🙂
Wishing you well and looking very much forward to the Consult book,
Marc
Scott,
Great news – although I’m late – been busy reading the White Luck Warrior on Kindle (which miraculously appeared here in Croatia finally), so, naturally, I’m starved for more. 🙂
The Achamian plot/madness is superb, the aftermath left me thinking of the movie Ravenous for some reason 🙂
Cheers,
MS
Okay; 1st: this series is absolutely fantabulous & i can barely wait for TUC, & more than anything else, Scott, THANK YOU for sharing this amazing tale. i could shower copious praises upon this work (& often do to random strangers in bookstores) but i wanted to mention that there is no such thing as an autumn solstice. I presume you mean the equinox? there are a few minor typos in the JE & WLW, but this is a more dire error, unless Earwa has a VERY different kind of heavenly arrangement.
Just felt it was important to point this out. Extremely stoked for TUC & very happy for your successes thus far.
all blessings, -a.t. johnston
*ahem*
WOOOOOOO!
Stoked. 🙂
Finally, what I’ve been waiting for since I was killing time at a Barnes & Noble and happened to be looking through the ‘new releases’ section and way up on the top shelf tucked away was The Darkness that comes before. I had like 5 min. so I read the first 3 or 4 pages and…. Well here I wait 10 years later. It was just chance, I never read Fantasy. I have shared your book with others and they all agreed, great stuff. I agree, if HBO did a series with your stories, it would be Game Of Thrones times ten.
Anyways, hurry up Mr. Bakker, but take your time. I’m your number one fan…
It’s like the joke about the Velvet Underground: they didn’t sell a lot of records but everyone who bought one started a band.
Any News on TUC? AND YES: HBO needs to take a look at this awesome story – never saw something similar!