School’s… Out… For Autumn!
by rsbakker
Aphorism of the Day: Ask the right question and a fool will build his own gallows. Answers for wood. Presumption for rope.
So I finished teaching that creative writing class at Fanshawe – my first straight gig in, like, a decade or so. I had a blast, and from what I could tell, the rest of my class did as well. I was going to write that I wasn’t sure why I love teaching as much as I do, then it occurred to me that this wasn’t true. There’s something about throwing the light switch on for a bunch of ‘young people.’ There’s something about making a room full of people laugh.
It makes me think of the old Burt Lancaster film, Elmer Gantry, the story of a shill who falls in love with a Christian Revivalist, and through sheer sociopathic charm beds her and takes over her mission. Lancaster does a brilliant job broadcasting the animality that underwrites so much spirituality, and the film does a brilliant job depicting the mobbish ecstasy of submission en masse.
Not to say my course was anything remotely approaching this (“Raise your hands and sing out the Glory of the Revised Manuscript and the Well-Written Query!”), but something happens sometimes, I think, in certain classes, something they call learning but feels more like trust. Whatever it is, we had it.
I was worried going in, simply because the course was too big to effectively workshop: How do you teach creative writing without workshopping? In a sense, you don’t. So I began with the sociology and psychology of creative writing, discussing audiences and authority gradients, the structure of ‘stable communication’ and the way literature tries to both milk and undermine it. Blah-blah-blah.
All the while I assigned paragraphs, which was always the core of my teaching strategy back when I taught basic college writing courses. Paragraphs, paragraphs, paragraphs. Two for every three classes, assigned in class to be turned in personally the following day. This encourages attendance, and most importantly, it keeps your students constantly writing, constantly engaged, through the week.
And I’ll be damned if it doesn’t seem to work.
The idea behind each assignment was to tackle one of a number of things that tend to distinguish amateurish writing from professional work. It’s amazing how important the paragraph is, structurally speaking, and how much it can transform your writing once you master them. They are the cogs… or even better, the sprockets, of well written fiction.
So… like, yah… It was pretty cool.
But nowhere near so cool as sitting on your ass pondering apocalyptic madness on your screen…
The big reason I’ve been posting here as often as I have was simply that the class stranded me with small chunks of my day, and my brain is a diesel: it takes sometime to warm up. In a sense, this was where I was the student: I feel as though I’ve learned so much about the more ephemeral aspects of the biz.
For the first time in my career I actually started paying close attention to my sales. Amazon has a feature that allows authors to manage their own books and provides Bookscan data broken down by region in the US. I now know, for instance, that I am far bigger in traditional blue states than I am in red (no surprise there, I suppose, but I was hoping). I’ve also come to realize that my US sales are far below what they could be, compared to the UK and Canadian markets. And unfortunately, I now know just how dismally my two side-projects, Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, have fared. (You’re a bunch of genre purists out there, you know that?)
But I also learned that The Second Apocalypse is alive and well, as tenacious as C. difficile in the cultural gut, and most importantly, growing, not quickly, mind you, but steadily – enough for me to turn down a full-time teaching job… Something which is gold these here parts.
Now I gotta make like Elmer Gantry, only without the womanizing, the speaking-in-tongues, the ranting and raving about What God Wants according to this ancient prose-poem. (The hellfire and damnation stuff I’m okay with).
I need to save some souls from the iniquity of certain certainties.
Sell a fucking book or two.
And write.
The new side project, what I turn to when I burn out on The Unholy Consult, will be a selection of stories and vignettes call Atrocity Tales, concentrating on events from the founding of the Consult to the rise of the Scarlet Spires during the Scholastic Wars. I’ll be posting them online as I go, soliciting feedback, and hopefully providing newcomers a less daunting way to climb into the series. Something to take the density out of The Darkness That Comes Before. Something easier to recommend.
I’m sorry to hear Neuropath has done poorly for you. I thought it was brilliant, both as a novel and as a science fiction, but it’s certainly not an easy book for me to recommend to others because it is so bleak and at times profoundly disturbing.
I don’t even recommend it!
“I now know just how dismally my two side-projects, Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, have fared. (You’re a bunch of genre purists out there, you know that?)”
As much as I love the fantasy stuff, I think Disciple of the Dog is my favorite novel that you have published. I yearn for a new Disciple novel more than the next installment of the Aspect Emperor.
Me too. I have tonnes of material for The Enlightened Dead, but no buyers. And now apparently ABC is coming out with a new crime drama featuring a detective with Disciple’s memory. This pretty much means that Disciple will be perceived to be derivative, even though he could very well be the inspiration.
This happened to David Cronenberg… another crazy Canadian with a brilliant idea. “Shivers” is now acknowledged as the progenitor of Alien by body horror nerds such as yours truly, but damned if anyone knows or cares.
(By the way… is it something in the water that makes you people so demented? Or all the maple syrupy goodness?)
Some of my co-workers are avid readers of crime fiction. What I have noticed is that they tend to pick a couple of series and they stick to those. Not only is it difficult to get them to try something outside of the crime genre, (I have tried to get more than a few people I work with to read PoN and Aspect Emperor with little luck) but it can be very tricky to get them to try stuff outside of the series that they like.
I’ve got a grouping of courses on literacy and social sciences in my graduate teaching program. Any chance of seeing your lesson plans from the writing class? I’m always trolling for ideas, and given what you have discussed here and in your work, I’d love to see how you went about planning the course.
…and equally important, what you had to say! No denying it. Perhaps those materials would be suitable for a space in the site miscellania?
My lesson plans tend to be very minimal: just the two or three ‘must make’ points. I find the more I plan out the lesson, the more I ‘lockdown’ on the class. So I wing it, using discussion to guide the lecture.
I haven’t commented here before, largely because I don’t consider myself up-to-snuff in my critical thinking capabilities and therefore my ability to contribute anything meaningful, but I have to comment now and say that I am very excited to hear about Atrocity Tales. Really, I’m just a fanboy of the series who likes the characters (and capabilities) of Khellus and Conphas, but will always be especially intrigued by The Consult and especially The Inchoroi. I can not wait to read more about them. Even the Scarlet Spires piqued my interest after learning how some of them learned how to summon demonic entities. I can’t guess with any certainty, but I doubt I was the only person that considered the appendix to TTT to be one the best parts of the book (outside of the conversation between Khellus and Moenghus). I’ve probably read the entry on the Nonmen-Inchoroi wars five or six times over the years.
So, Scott, you have at least one fan who would GLADLY pay a hardcover price when the book is ready.
Awesome. I’ve always said that this series is aimed at that small group of readers who prefer The Silmarillion to The Lord of the Rings!
So is the plan to publish Atrocity Tales or to have that be a purely online project? Publish! I’ll buy! Even if I’ve read them all online beforehand.
(outside of the conversation between Khellus and Moenghus)
Did you find yourself thinking while reading ‘Nooo, not another chapter on the battle! I want to get back to the conversation! Not that the battle isn’t good, it’s great, but I wanna get back!’. Of course, I didn’t have the heart to skip the battle chapters, either, not helping my own cause!
You have spoken my exact feelings. When I first read the first book i was assaulted with a world old and apparently dieing. My brain was rammed with terms and ideas life changing and horrifying. That being said, i still feel that there is still so much more to tell, I know now where my internet browsing will come back to daily.
That last comment was a reply to Andrew for the record. (Keep the battles coming)
I’m very much looking forward to reading more about the history of Eärwa. I don’t know how your books generally fare in small Switzerland, but I for one am still recommending them and pissing people off by falling back on Neuropath in every other discussion, so I know at least a few people who will be glad you mainly stick to writing.
Just what I need. More angry Swiss!
De-lurking just to say that I’m really excited by the prospect of the short stories and vignettes! I really love PoN and TAE and more stories within that space is awesome!
And, have to say, I really enjoyed Disciple of the Dog – I think it was the first crime fiction novel I’ve purchased actually!
The cool thing is that it’s a really, really, big space. I’m curious to see how the ancient tales will contextualize the present saga. Will the names resonate with more meaning? Or will the mystery evaporate? Sometimes ignorance makes things deep.
Very excited about the Atrocity Tales, this is the first i’ve heard of them. Even more excited about The Unholy Consult. Can’t wait to see how this turns out. Keep doing what your doing Bakker, don’t let American sales distress you. After all we’re just a bunch of dumb Americans.
Which is better than being a bunch of dumb Americans who think they’re better than dumb Americans – or in other words, Canadian…
Neuropath may not be the best-seller you hoped it would be, but I hold that with a few tweaks here or there it would make an amazing film. It is certainly the most filmable of your books.
Plus, the time is right. There’s one movie out right now about pharmacological enhancement of neural processes (Limitless), and one coming about the social consequences of an immortality vaccine (I forget the name).
Maybe the literati are clueless, but Hollywood may actually be getting it…
I always thought so to, especially because it offers an entirely new palette for CGI effects. A number of Hollywood people have taken a look at it, big and small, and the consensus seems to be that the story can’t work without the Argument, and the Argument can’t work on screen. I actually heartily disagree, but there’s not many producers willing to stake several million on the basis of my disagreement. In fact, there isn’t a single one.
I enjoyed Limitless. You’re right, cogski consciousness is creeping through the mainstream, big time. It’ll take a dump in the literary cornflakes soon enough.
Just wanted to add that I’m also sorry to hear Neuropath didn’t do so well. Is Light Time And Gravity kaput? That was the book I was looking forward to the most.
LTG is alive and well. I sometimes think I’ve grown so comfortable with continually tweaking it that I can’t stop.
That’s good to hear… not coming out this year, though, I take it? I should cancel the pre-order I put in back in April?
You may not want to do this, but would be really interested in more info on the second apocalypse sales numbers. I’m kind of a box office junkie, and I like to follow sales numbers of my favorite forms of entertainment, whether they are movies or music or whatever. Unfortunately, books don’t seem to have a “billboard” sales chart that I can find anywhere.
Of course, this may just be none of my business, and maybe you don’t want people to know how rich or poor you are, but I think a lot of us would be interested if you are willing.
Ah, that would take work. And it would feel kind of like posting my tax return, now that I think about it. So long as I can afford Cheerios and new shoes for my girl, I’m fine.
Thrillers tend to be tricky successes, I imagine. Fast-moving prose, convoluted-but-not-too-convoluted plots, and so forth. For every big thriller out there, I’ve noticed about 100 just sitting in my local library.
That sounds really awesome.
My personal perspective (as a fan and reader) was that The Judging Eye was by far the easiest of the five books to get into and read. The prose flowed quickly, the philosophizing was tight and careful, and the action flowed well. That might be something to aim for.
The funny thing is that I got so many complaints from hardcore PoN fans about TJE. WLW walks the line between the two nicely, I think. I hope.
The funny thing is that I got so many complaints from hardcore PoN fans about TJE.
Surely that’s kind of a confirmation of having reached for another market?
As a sample size of one, I think I would have found TJE easier to get into as my introduction to the series than I did TDTCB.
Atrocity Tales sounds great! I really look forward to reading them as they get posted.
I’m curious– as the number of Eärwa stories grows, have you ever thought about having a wiki to help keep it all straight? Or, possibly even restarting the Three Seas Forums?
I think a neat era to see would be the 3 centuries before Darkness when the Mandate and the Consult last openly clashed. Just be interesting to see what the Consult used before they had skin-spies. Like, did the Mangaecca actually send sorcerers into the Three Seas? What was the general opinion of the rulers of the Three Seas at the time in regards to the Consult? 3 centuries doesn’t sound like such a far-away time, yet opinion had to have majorly shifted in that period for the Mandate to be regarded as they were in the Darkness era.
Brian, there is a Prince of Nothing wiki to which some intrepid fan transcribed near the entirety of The Thousandfold Thought Appendix. Anyone can edit and add to it.
http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing_Wiki
Also, there is usually a Second Apocalypse thread going on in the Westeros Literature sub-forum. We’re on White-Luck Warrior VI now, I believe.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/11-literature/
I think, Jurble, in one of Achamian’s musings in The Darkness That Comes Before when he first meets Kellhus, he reflects on the Mandate having had a mission in Atrithau and skirmishing opening with the Consult. Which interests me greatly because, due to the anarcane ground there, it would have amounted to an intense cloak and dagger environment sans sorcery.
Thanks for everything, Bakker.
That is an impressive breadth of years for Atrocity Tales, btw.
I gotta check some of this shit out! Thanks for the links, Mike.
“Which interests me greatly because, due to the anarcane ground there, it would have amounted to an intense cloak and dagger environment sans sorcery.”
Huh, you make a good point about the anarcane ground. I can’t really imagine sorcerers, either the pudgy fat-nerd types like Achamian or the thin-nerd types like Nautzera being able to handle themselves in a non-sorcerous fight. Perhaps once upon a time the Mandate also employed slave-soldiers?
Maybe not even slave-soldiers, although that’s a strong possibility. I figure Atrithau was the popular launching point for Mandati expeditions attempting to reach Sauglish.
Thanks for the links! I’ll have to see what I can add to the PoN wiki 😀
Yeah, I found the PoN Wiki a while ago. Looked like someone had started it and then abandoned it after not much work had been done, so I took it over (being an admin on other Wikis means you can do that 🙂 ). I’m not actually sure if having the TTT appendix transposed over there is a good thing (I suspect Scott and his publishers would prefer not, or at least not in so much detail), so we might have to break that down to more the bare bones of the appendix and concentrate more on collecting info from the text of the novels.
Then again, Scott said in an interview recently that the second version of the ‘big appendix’ might not even make it into THE UNHOLY CONSULT due to space limitations and that sort of material might have to be online-only, so that might not be an issue. What do you think, Scott?
I find the thing fascinating. TUC is becoming way too big to accommodate a glossary, so I say full steam ahead…
I can actually see how it might be difficult to make the Argument work on-screen.
When you’re sitting in a philosophy class, the instructor usually takes about 45 minutes to dissect something. For example, when I was introduced to Utilitarianism in Intro Ethics, the professor went on for 45 minutes in (what seemed like, but was actually not) great detail about counter-arguments. This is very satisfying for the student because it leaves very few of the OBVIOUS counter-arguments unmentioned.
But say you’re watching Neuropath. Bible tells us The Argument. Now, the 15 yokels in the audience immediately RATIONALIZE 15 counter-arguments for why The Argument is false. Because Bible cannot spend 45 minutes on-screen addressing each possible obvious counter-argument, the audience sits there dissatisfied as the movie goes on with an unproven Argument as its premise.
Now, if you scripted it very cleverly, the entire narrative would actually be about dissecting each counter-argument. I think this would hinge on the side characters bringing up something, and then WHAM Cassidy does something that proves them wrong.
The whole thing would probably have to be set up something like Se7en.
Anyone got 50 million to spare?
*shrug*
Bingo.
I have 50 million opinions…
It might be yokel of me, but I’d think you’d have Niel have a number of salacious yet relatively straight forward psychosis’s. I mean, ‘Seven’ was relatively straight forward in the end, wasn’t it?
Have the argument just seem like background rantings and ravings.
But toward the end, start tying it up for those who’ll see it. Tie it up so he doesn’t have a series of psychosis’s – the only thing he has, is the argument. It all stems from there. Or, for those who don’t see it tie together, it’s a series of salacious and horror entertainment psychosis’s. Perhaps, like seven, overlay some straight forward , supposedly out of left field political agenda (when, IIRC the guy in seven’s moral agenda is pretty ancient, even if it seems outta left field) that’s supposedly the cause. Tie it all together, one as the easy story, so people who didn’t want to think don’t come out and ruin through word of mouth the movies cash intake, the second tie as the lurking culmination – the more their minds by chance thought about it, the more they come out aware of something even more uneasy.
Not that I’d see it as a movie – too scary for me.
The Atrocity Tales sounds like the perfect tidbit fix for PoN junkies.
I assume you mean you will post them here in the Stories section or should I look elsewhere?
Foucault’s Pendulum left me with many impressions, one of them being that “self publishing” might be two words that are even dirtier than “epic fantasy”.
In this day and age of Kindles, Nooks (I LOVE my Nook) and I-Pads, it seems like it is that much easier to get product (music/books/movies) to the customer. Retailers like Barnes and NOble (and I’m pretty sure Amazon) even offer methods for individuals to self-publish.
Do you have any opnions about self-publishing that you would like to share? Is it somethig you would ever consider?
Will the Atrocity Tales feature stories of the Nonmen Kingdoms befroe the womb plague? The history and civiization of the Cunurio is the most fascinating part of the series.
Seeing tidbits from the foundation of the Schools would be fascinating, I’m curious as to how lone wizards and their apprentices survived in that era, considering the persecution and the widespread chorae.
I have a weird question that’s been nagging at me, and I posted it over at Westeros. Could a sorcerer get his soul sealed into one of those dolls (like the one Akka stole from a witch), and avoid damnation?
We’ve had this discussion on Westeros (are you one of the posters there? wtb username standardization). It’s implied that Shaeonanra did something along these lines to achieve his method of immortality. Moreover, the idea that Shaeonanra specialized in soul-capturing jives well with the fact that No-God was only summoned after he and the Mangaecca were brought in on the plan.
Given that *WHITE LUCK WARRIOR SPOILERS WARNING* the Golden Room scenario makes it seem as if the Consult were harvesting souls for the No-God (though it could just be for experimentation). But Bakker does mention instilled animata earlier in the book, intentionally I imagine, to set up the circumstantial evidence i.e. 1. Shae was a soul-instilling pro. 2. No-God didn’t get summoned until he got there. 3. The Consult apparently needed a shit-ton of people for some nefarious purpose. 4. Bakker explains instilled animata.
Yes, I was there – I usually go by one of the “Bass” related usernames. I thought that had been the consensus, although my second question on that was why more sorcerers don’t try to do it in order to avoid damnation. I don’t think it’s because Shaeonanra was an exceptional Gnostic sorcerer – the Wathi Doll, for example, was made by a witch practicing a “folkloric” version of Anagogic Sorcery.
As someone who prefers the Silmarrilion to LotR, this news of background tales is wonderful. I’ve probably read the appendix to TTT three times, and find the past (in some ways) more intriguing than The Aspect Emperor…
After reading this post I just want you to know one thing. Scott, I… I think….. I might love you. Seriously I look forward to reading your posts in atrocity tales. Speaking of which that would make a good book title for the history of the Consult.
Atrocity Tales….yes yes yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will there be tales of the refugee dunyain, before finding Ishual. Indeed, the very origins of them as Dunyain? The first step?
Wantie for so long!
Hey Scott,
I just had a crazy idea. What if Disciple Manning was a nonman? Like you took the character and premise, then transplanted them to Ewara. Then you could rewrite THE ENLIGHTED DEAD as a series of short stories for ATROCITY TALES.
Granted, this sounds absurd. Bear in mind that I’m also incredibly stoned. But at the very least it would be a nice way to give a more approachable structure (i.e. Detective Tales) to these offshoots of the books, which could lure in a broader audience for The Second Apocalypse.
Shit! I meant Earwa!
I need to save some souls from the iniquity of certain certainties.
This sounds like it has slipped the leash of an occasional suspicious glance itself.
I hope you sell each individual Atrocity Tales for a couple bucks on the Kindle rather than giving them away for free. I’ll still buy the book, if your publisher puts them out, but millionaires have been made selling short genre fiction on the kindle.
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2011/04/99-cent-e-books-and-tragedy-of-commons.html
On the subject of the books’ under-performance in the USA, I guess this may be down to Overlook’s status as a (relatively) smaller publisher?
Having had a few email contacts with them over the years, no-one will deny that Overlook are enthusiastic for the series, nor that their covers for the books are probably the finest around. However, being a smaller publisher they simply don’t have the clout to get the books into the stores with large amounts of marketing and the other things that are needed to improve sales.
One solution that comes to mind would be for someone else (say Orbit US, given your pre-existing relationship with them in the UK?) to publish the series in mass-market paperback in the USA whilst Overlook continue publishing the hardcovers and tradebacks. The mmpb sales could then grow your profile in the USA and that would (hopefully) lead to increased sales of the next book for Overlook. Whether that’s realistic or possible, I don’t know, but it could be a way of addressing the issue.
Certainly I don’t think there’s anything else to blame: you have critical acclaim, you have a reasonable profile and you have some good cover quotes (though I wonder if asking GRRM for one might be helpful as well at this point in time 🙂 ), and whilst the books are a harder sell than, say, David Eddings, they’re no more of a hard sell than Frank Herbert or Steven Erikson, who are quite successful.
Just some thoughts there and not a dig at Overlook, whose enthusiasm for your books is palpable.
Hey Adam. Your diagnosis is pretty much on the button. You never get end displays or any other kind of prominent frontage when working with a second tier publisher. Price point has always been an issue in the US, that’s for sure. But Overlook did eventually release bargain versions of their format: the reason they give for not releasing mass market versions is the way they seem to be losing ground to other formats. And they finally relented on the ebook issue: a lot of the illegal download sites have counters, so I pulled together a list with a combined total of over 50 000 downloads of the trilogy, gave it to my agent, and lo, there was a kindle version of the books two weeks later.
The hang up all along was simply the fact that the trades kept backlisting and backlisting – the series was literally a victim of its moderate success – and we had to convince them that branching out into cheaper formats wouldn’t simply undercut what they thought was a tidy revenue stream.
In all fairness, I also think the US market is its own animal, especially when it comes to edgy or quirky genre fiction: look how long it took Pratchett to break in the US. If I can nail this final book, I think the series has a fair chance of climbing a rung or two.
A blurb from George never hurt anyone. But the etiquette of these things between authors is pretty clear: if the offer comes…
The real story of my series, though, will be people like you. Readers who abandoned (or almost abandoned fantasy) because of university form the commercial backbone of the series. The trick is to reach these readers, and guys like you, Pat, and Larry have been absolutely pivotal in this regard. Connecting books with readers is what you do!
And who knows? There’s a growing fan-clan in Hollywood: the books seem to appeal to other ‘creatives,’ and so long as that’s the case, so long as the critics keep thumping the tub, and so long as I don’t somehow artistically implode, we’ll probably be having a very different conversation in ten years time.
Other than that, what I really need to do is get something out that will make TDTCB more digestible. As it stands, the attrition rate is around 50%. In word of mouth terms, it means there’s as many people saying ‘don’t bother’ as there is saying, ‘check it out.’
Before the films, there was probably a 50% attrition rate for LoTR, as well. I knew numerous “peers” who dug the Hobbit in junior high but couldn’t get past all the songs and wanderings or in the very latest Tom Bomby.
I think TDTCB is attractive to older readers due to its literary content, brilliant prose and the distillation of challenging ideas into a palatable narrative. But that very challenging (ie refreshing) aspect, alongside the lack of easy wish-fullfillment, is going to hurt sales with the teenage fanclub crowd with their sizable disposible incomes, though, and you can’t really have your cake and eat it too. (that and the uber-sensitive about the gender explorations… did I tell you about how us Bakker fans are actually rapists in disguise? I was informed of that one time…) In any case, I think your series is going to be around as the creme de from now on, thanks to those qualities listed above.
I think the attrition rate is less of a problem if you improve the circulation of the books in the first place. If you get say 5 million copies of TDTCB out there and only 2.5m stick around for the rest of the series, I think that would still be a good result 🙂
For my part, I’ll keep bigging them up whenever possible.
Scott I just wanted to say thanks for the course, it was great. The conversations at Carey’s were even better. It was a pleasure meeting the man that’s putting forth The Second Apocalypse.
Atrocity Tales already has me anxiously waiting its release. The idea of a Three Seas Silmarillion is amazing. (My screen name probably betrays my love of that book)
If you ever find yourself at a loss for something to write, not likely I know, I would love to see a novel of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, from the fall of the Ark to the deliverance of the Tusk.
Any chance of an epic Anglo-Saxon style poem in blank verse? The tusk?
Come on! Tolkien did it!
Can we get a little more information on what sort of format we might see these Atrocity Tales in? I’m excited regardless
[…] Source: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/schools-out-for-autumn/ […]
I would also like to add it would be great to have a whole book in the same style the glossary, as in a more comprehensive history . But reading about the Non-Men in their first conflicts with the Race of Lovers is always griping.
Atrocity Tales, now. Must purchase.
I truly hope Khellus and the meaty peach of TPoN’s deeper appeal returns. Even if that was harder for the masses to swallow.
On another note. Book stores are dead. Did no one notice the top 2 major chains in america – close? Only one left. Publish e-books. Only future that exists.