Updatage
by rsbakker
To truly appreciate the great ordeal that has been The Great Ordeal, one need look no further than the patience of Pat, who has finally posted the full version of the excerpt I promised him way back in 2012 for his Fantasy Hotlist. This is the chapter that picks up immediately from the epilogue of The White-Luck Warrior–where we discover what Achamian and Mimara discover in the ruins of Ishual. To hear Pat’s thoughts on the novel as a whole, you need only click here. Let’s just say he gets me!
Grimdark Magazine, meanwhile, has published the Prologue and Chapter One, picking up on the Esmenet and Kellhus storylines. Last night I walked past the Boardgame Café downtown, and as usual it was packed, and with women no less! I felt like kicking open the door and shouting, “Where were you twenty years ago!”
I feel the exact same way about Grimdark Magazine.
My standalone laptop has owned me of late: I often find that avoiding the web is the best way to stay focussed. I mean, at my work, I am the bloody network administrator.
Three Pound Brain 
It has been worth it! 🙂
Awesome. Thank you Andy!
🙂
That was supposed to be an emoji. Instead [smiley face emoji], [smiley sranc emoji], [happy bashrag emoji]
[***SPOILER ALERT***]
Hi Bakker. You know the whale mothers thing has caused quite the controversy over at your most loyal online community, Westeros. People claim that a species with such a big difference between males and females cannot exist in mammals. That there is no way the Dûnyain could have bred their women to become big wombs while breeding Their men to become supermen.
What are your thoughts on this?
I get the idea of big picture credibility arguments, but these kind of disputes in fantasy fiction often strike me as opportunistic. You could argue the natural impossibility of any number of things in ALL fantastic narratives, so the question has to be why this one thing? If people buy skin-spies, why do they draw the line at whale-mothers?
I suppose I could just cook up a rationale: The Dunyain possess an artificially selected genetic mutation that only cues whale-mother dimorphism in the presence of estrogen in certain concentrations. After all, gender dimorphism is a characteristic of all species possessing gender (mammals included), in many cases far more radically than suggested here.
There’s better things to argue about, if you ask me. Such as the role played by the Logos, for one.
I think the complaint was that the inchoroi have the techne to make skin spies, where the dunyain do not. However, if it helps folks out there, my own rationalisation is that the dunyain have neuropuncture and can control growth glands in the brain that way (in conjunction with breeding methods). But that makes pin head whale mothers and at that point I’m too creeped out to continue. But really, when things are unpleasant the budgeted amount of ‘believing’ goes down significantly. For some the ‘unbelievable’ grants an escape hatch out of the fictions cut (even though they’d looked for an escape hatch out of reality to begin with). It probably shows stuffs.
I’d wondered how dunyain community could last even five minutes, as community requires some amount of ‘give’ in order to be a community at all. To give resources for others without knowing entirely what will be done with those resources. But I guess it makes horrible sense now. If it had been livestock, like cows, the dunyain males could splinter still – find other food. But breeding…there is no alternative. And the mothers ‘give’. And can’t go anywhere, so neither can the male dunyain. ‘Community’. What a horrific reductio of a principle of giving. The micro community of man + woman bastardised…optimised (a very uncommunity based optimisation)…bottomless betrayal…fine, now I’m just ranting, I admit.
I’m delighted that you’re well, and I’m excited about The Great Ordeal. Regarding female Dunyain I have to grant that level of sexual dimorphism to you because I’ve already granted it to Frank Herbert:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Tleilax
If I were inclined to argue Dunyain reproductive biology I would wonder whether it’s possible to select for the same physical and mental virtues in Dunyain females as for Dunyain males while also breeding them to be mostly womb. For that matter I would wonder how the Dunyain genetic project benefits from the misogyny that dominates the Three Seas unless you mean to imply that the misogyny of the Dunyain is logical. In fairness the Judging Eye has seen that “Between women and men, women possess the lesser soul” so within the context of this world perhaps breeding men for strength of mind and body and breeding women for fertility does make sense.
On the other hand so much of male human emotion and irrationality is wrapped up in sexuality and reproduction that the Logos, the shortest path to grasping the absolute might well include the destruction of female sexual beauty in order to free the male Dunyain from their own lusts.
Where people choose to draw that line is always interesting.
To me it speaks of a lack of creativity on the part of the reader. Clearly, if you’ve bought in that this fantasy world exists, then getting caught up on “but that’s now how it works IRL” isn’t really an argument that makes sense to me.
Heck, something as simple as, Yatwer – the actual living God of Birth – decided that such a thing could be so. Though you’re above justification is far better.
Callan brings up a great point, the scene, the entire concept, is very difficult/disturbing. Being able to dismiss it as “nope, impossible” makes a nice coping mechanism. If it can’t exist, the implications no longer need to be considered.
REKT
But what was the point of that anyway? Why aren’t they just Dûnyain women who are held in chains against their will? Because as it stands it seems like a very forced homage without a lot of substance behind it.
The whole series orbits about the interplay of the material and the spiritual, meat and soul, and you’re asking why Dunyain women are shackled by bodies forced upon them by their oppressors, rather than just simply chains?
Take some comfort in this, Ruru: there is just so much going on in TGO that you won’t be too caught up in the “whale-mother” part. I think you’ll really like the book as a whole.
@Ruru “But what was the point” – Off the top of my head:
Its an integral part of the story. It gives deep insight into the Dunyain world. It has extreme implications on how the Logos works. Its vital in understanding future interactions with Kellhus. It changes how you can perceive past comments form Kellhus regarding women, breeding, his children, etc. It calls into questions the divinitity of Kellhus. It makes the reader question just about everything. Its challenging. Its difficult to make sense of. It gives a sense of extreme evil. Implications regarding Duyain not being so different from Inchoroi… The list goes on
“Why aren’t they…” – Of course. Why isn’t everything some other way? Probably because there are important implications for future and past parts that make this scene important exactly the way it is. Just like, if you’ve looked closely at the series, every other scene…
If you’d like to join in on some speculations/discussions about TSA, I’d suggest moving to here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php .
“The Dunyain possess an artificially selected genetic mutation that only cues whale-mother dimorphism in the presence of estrogen in certain concentrations.”
Humans are default female until a testosterone bath in the womb, estrogen-levels only diverge at puberty. It’s not impossible but whale-mother/Dunyain male differentiation would require the sort of regulatory cascade pathway that’s very difficult for human artificial selection to produce – humans have a relatively low mutation rate compared to, say, dogs and so putting all the pieces together would be tremendously difficult.
Moreover, this sort of mutation would have to be sex-chromosome related in order to prevent genetic recombination from making the selection process a complete nightmare. In fact, the easiest way I could think of this sort of complex, crazy sexual dimorphism to happen in a short time frame would be something like the Dunyain possessing a reduplicated->fused X-chromosome (X_x), alongside a functional X chromosome – giving them something resembling 3 sex chromosomes. Because of the chimeric nature of how the X-chromosome is silenced in a given cell, this allows for viability in females alongside the increased doping effects of desirable reproductive traits.
It would also mean the Dunyain can be X_x,X – whale mother, XX – normal female, XY – normal male, X_xY – dead, so X_x, X_x can never exist. But this would also mean the presence of relatively normal female Dunyain, which don’t exist as far as we know – though Kellhus in TDtCB actually thinks of a ‘beautiful woman’ in a flashback to his training under the pragma.
Really, the primary issue I have with it is the sheer difficulty selection would have in producing a whale-mother/normal Dunyain dichotomy in the required time period. A regulatory cascade is the easiest explanation, but requires immense amount of time to properly evolve because it’s reliant on some hail Mary mutations. Segregated mutations are an easier answer to produce via selection, but recombination would make the Dunyain’s breeding efforts a nightmare without the ability to sequence or genotype.
Skin-spies are easier to digest because the Tekne is just Aurax slapping a keyboard on some sci-fi genetic engineering computer and seeing what happens.
But why should anyone on earth care about this outside of hard SF? The easiest counterargument to make is an imperative: Relax! Try to enjoy a narrative that goes far greater lengths to be believeable than most any other epic fantasy out there. All this is interesting in its own right, but as a criticism it simply misses the point… the whole genre, you could say.
Either way, the assumptions simply do not hold. I’m sure in a purely causal universe very little about the Dunyain is ‘scientifically creditable.’ But as it turns out, intentionality objectively exists in the World. Wanting something to happen actually influences outcomes.
I sometimes wonder if some people read a different book 😛
“But why should anyone on earth care about this outside of hard SF?”
I studied genetics so I’m a bit biased towards caring about it regardless of the genre.
Anyway, let me explain – for me at least, in this specific case, it doesn’t fit with how the world was presented initially. We had two examples of Earwan genetics –
The Dunyain are impractical or impossible irl as depicted (how many calories would a real Kellhus have to burn in order to use the probability trance?) But the method of their creation – selection for intelligence over a few thousand years – seemed to work as and on the same principles as our Earth’s genetics.
Similarly, the Consult and their genetically engineered thugs were just sci-fi genetic engineering, the principles of which didn’t either to seem to be outside of our own reality’s future capabilities.
So I had a fixed view of how genetics itself operated within the world (the same as ours) – the issue of Dunyainic caloric requirements was something to bother information physicists, not me.
But whale mothers diverge from that schema I held. It’s bit a like learning Earwa’s speed of light is slower than its speed of sound. Wouldn’t you, if you were to learn that, find that strange even in the context of a fantasy novel, based on everything that had previously been presented?
“most loyal online community” hmm, I wonder what it’s called? “Westeros.” Oh, that GRRM thing. If only there was a whole forum devoted just to Bakkerstuff…
Just having a little fun Ruru. 😉
Gasp! No! My in-group is the MOST dedicated, and all of you outsiders cannot possibly fathom the nature our devotion – being that you are outside.
🙂
How do they feel about Mammals summoning fiery birds from nowhere by saying and thinking different things?
It could also be argued that a full on “whale mother” is simply embellishment by the Mimara narrative. They could be bloated pregnancy creatures, but “whale” is simply a descriptive term. Or….just as RS Bakker explains, the science of Ciphrang, teleportation, magic blasts, qirri, skin spies, little walking soul slave dolls, and etc is just fiction. Don’t pick on one thing and ignore the other.
Why aren’t they just Dûnyain women who are held in chains against their will?
Because that’s not optimised for what they are being used for. Why does it seem odd that the Dunyain would optimise?
To continue my comment:
On the third hand, the difficulty Kellhus has getting Dunyain traits to breed true when using non-Dunyain females suggests that the rules that govern breeding ‘In Real Life’ also apply in this fantasy universe. If they do, then Kalbear and those who agree with him can be seen as accusing Scott of violating rules that he has invoked within his own fantasy universe, a far more serious accusation than mere inconsistency with Real Life. I don’t have much sympathy for this accusation, but it is not entirely unreasonable.
I was not shocked by the Whale Mothers, primarily because Consult skin spies are similar enough to Tleilaxu face dancers that I half-expected axlotl tanks to make an appearance. I certainly do not mean to imply that Scott’s works are derivative. I consider R. Scott Bakker to be very much his own man artistically, but he is a self-professed Frank Herbert fan.
Congrats, buddy! Stellar score from Pat. Looking forward to Grimdark Magazine and Andy from Bakkerfans two forthcoming reviews.
What are you currently staying focused on now? Also, what’s the word on Pat’s interview, Grim Tidings Podcast, and your reddit AMA?
Cheers :)!
Thanks Mike. I’m toiling over TUC rewrites at the moment, working on the Encyclopedic Glossary when I burn out. I’m sitting on the interview so that I can do revisions with fresh eyes. I’ve yet to schedule either the podcast or the AMA–I’m allergic to multitasking as always!
All exciting things! Looking forward to it all :).
Cheers, Mr. Bakker. I wish you nothing but success and good fortune in all of your endeavors. The world you have built has captivated me for years, and I am sure it will keep doing so for years to come. Bring on TGO!
If those excerpts are in anyway indicative of the whole then these two books are going to be your best work, IMO of course.
Just a month or so now….Can’t wait! Not since the last Thomas Covenant book came out have I awaited a book so eagerly. Soon…
I did not expect to find spoilers here! Oh well. It forced me to read the Ishual excerpt… what the hell! The end scene from The Warriror Prophet is somehow more terrifying. The search for the Dunyain.
The little boy inside me saw a million images for the battle described in the excerpt. “We fought them for years.” !!
Any thought on TGO ARCs being sold on ebay ahead of the actual release?
I think there have been a total of 5 sold so far, the most recent one selling for $150+, and one of the first ones were sold at $15 (a more typical price for one of your ARCs post-release).
I imagine some ‘over at your most loyal online communities’ (lol) have bid on, or in fact won, those auctions.
Are you expecting any real changes from the ARCs to the final release? Clearly, they are labeled “Uncorrected Proof”, there should/will be some proofing done in between, but what of content? If there were, for example, continuity errors between timelines, might that be small enough to address?
Two more sold yesterday for $100 each.
The price better go back down after the release or I’m going to be irritated. I could only afford to collect these down in the $20 price range. If you get all famous and these ‘collector’ items go up in price, I’ll never finish my collection.
I can’t wait.
The Inchoroi better “win”, I cast my lot with them ages ago.
Damn you Decepticons!
For anatomical or philosophical reasons?
This is a penis joke.
Bakkerfans reviews The Great Ordeal!
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1805.msg26390#msg26390
I’m glad you liked, Andy! Now here’s hoping it clicks so well with the rest of the world. You nailed the progression I’ve been aiming for: all along I’ve viewed the process as one of building a world of rumours, then concretizing those rumours one by one in stone and blood. It’s a big part of the reason why I’m so averse to discussing the World–that would be tantamount to spoilers, the way I have things blocked out.
Such a long-term strategy, I’m glad your wager has paid off. I’m not planning on having a heart attack for another 25 years, so I’m kind of hoping to get a Second Earwa out of you before it’s all done. Perhaps by then you’ll finally see the 💰💰💰 from the high sales your books deserve. I would like to know you felt massively vindicated at some point.
For me, just seeing TUC published would be vindication beyond dreams of avarice. I’ve spent so much time mooning over the thought that I sometimes wonder whether I haven’t inadvertently given my life meaning. I’ve had this crazy story crawling out of me for decades, now. Twill be strange, when it arrives.
It’s nice to know that your condition isn’t terminal. 🙂
Already pre-ordered! Can’t wait for the read Scott 🙂
Any plans for new projects after this?
Cool beans, Lars. My only new project is see a bevvy of old projects to fruition. Man do I have a backlog of material!
At the risk of being very counterproductive I’d like to hear Scott’s perspective on the discussion that popped up on Westeros forums about EAMD. I also wrote about it on my blog, and written there on that forum thread to offer my perspective.
This is a link to my comment in there, then it continues for a few more comments:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139967-r-scott-bakkers-the-great-ordeal-spoilers/&do=findComment&comment=7591458
I guess Scott already glanced at it, but maybe he doesn’t want to stir the pot again 🙂
Lol! I’m guessing that if you did a word count of everything Kalbear has posted over the years arguing that he has one up on me and the series, it would exceed that of the novels themselves. That says it all, doesn’t it? Some people gotta be right, even when there’s no facts of the matter. EAMD.
Otherwise, the books are meant to be scriptural, professing the vicissitudes of doubt rather than faith. I get that certain people don’t like that. It’s harder to understand why anyone would expend so much energy convincing others they shouldn’t like that. But then, hey, EAMD, right?
I’ve already thrown too much meat under the bridge, I think!
Maybe he’s the Barthes to your Balzac
Christ, that women have lesser souls bit is going to get you into another flamewar, if it hasn’t already. And you snuck it into the first six pages too!
It doesn’t matter if you were trying to show the fundamental incompatibility of human morality with any objective divine morality that could exist, or if you were writing someone who’s completely internalized the sexism of her culture. Depiction always equals endorsement on the internets, doncha know?
Hey man. Love your stuff. It’s not every day you get to directly talk to the author of your favorite book series.
I just want to say your world is enthralling and to keep doing what you’re doing. Your Illiad-like descriptions of battle scenes and war camps and shit is what got me into history hardcore. Only series I ever re-read.
Keep killing it brah. I like to think I have a sixth sense for what’s going to be the next Big Thing, and I got a feeling PoN’s gonna be “re-discovered” by the mainstream in the future and when the TV show hits (with someone as charismatic and believable as it takes to sell Kellhus as a genuine living god), it’s gonna blast the fuck off.
Thanks Baztek! Big thing or little thing the only important thing is that remain a thing, at least enough for me to keep feeding the beast!
It seems a curious thing as if there’s some rule about authors not talking back (much like the strangely unanimous agreement on ‘spoilers’, despite humanity being unable to agree on most everything else). Is it that the author gets to orate at his paper lectern uninterrupted at length and so there’s some sense of required reciprocation in that the author will shut up when the readers talk about the book and him/her? There just seems some genuinely shocked ‘He just can’t help himself’ comments on westeros, as if some great taboo has been broken by commenting on a commentator. Is there a sense of entitlement in immersion, so much so it seems the author is breaking something to talk back instead of remaining invisible ‘as they should’. Such is the sense of entitlement that it seems a rule that they should? Something shocked, anyway – it genuinely surprises and baffles me.
Oops, posted this in the wrong place above. Hopefully it gets deleted…
@Callan
I think what’s most important is that “I” am right. And, in insular communities where the in-group reigns supreme, it’s ‘not fair’ that someone can come in with more authority than yourself and simply say that you’re wrong. Or, in the very least, its so jarring for its infrequency, having your beliefs straight up challenged, that it creates a disproportionate amount of cognitive dissonance.
It has nothing to do with what the content of the story is, or what the intent of it was… That’s what I see when I look at it at least.
Could be that. Though I’m not sure it was even about authority? Perhaps it’s that authors shall not haunt the readers?
I’d guess its a phenomenon not restricted to authors and readers, but since I don’t avidly follow other mediums I shouldn’t comment.
If a popular TV show with some fanbase discussions and theories going around was corrected by the show’s creators, would it cause the same strife? In my there’s no reason to think that it wouldn’t, but again I don’t know. Maybe there is something peculiar about readers though that makes it unique.
I haven’t commented there in years. I respond to honest questions here with honest answers – so long as no spoilers are involved. Is the idea that I should have made an exception in this instance to abide by someone else’s hunches regarding authorial conduct?
Nah… We can’t wait for your ama man. 😉
Err, I don’t think so? I’m not sure I’m parsing your final sentence right, tho? I’m just genuinely baffled why you replying to someone elses post here about a particular poster (Kalbear) is taken by some westeros as ‘He just can’t help himself’ thing. It’s just talk, I’d have thought. Maybe Wilshires got it – it’s some authority gradient T-bone thing for any author to talk in responce.
In terms of what they wanted, I don’t think they wanted you to comment there so much as not comment at all. Even a guy asking folk to urge you not to do an AMA, saying you wont know what questions to ignore. I guess maybe it spoils it for them when it comes down from fictional world to the general sweaty tussle of debate.
I’m surprised that you’d take the time to respond, here or otherwise, to/about a single person’s thoughts/comments who has self avowed to disrupt your career. Feeding the trolls, as it were. Yeah, it was filtered through someone else, but you know what I mean.
There’s at least one place that comes to mind where you could fish for honest questions seeking honest answers. Hell, I can post some here once a day/week/month if that’s something you’d be interested in :).
Regardless, IMO, better to spend your limited interactions with your readership talking to those who actually have interest in what you’re saying… Rather than validating those who don’t..
One man’s bias opinion.
I know how we could test the “authority gradient T-bone ” (nice name). My theory is that it matters entirely on the place/forum. Different forum, different response. Or, we could look historically at the now defunct Three Seas and see how those interactions were received differently than at afoiaf. However, I think a modern day comparison would be more enlightening (no no, this isn’t a thinly veiled attempt to get Scott to post on/about questions raised at TSA instead of those from other forums….)
think of it as helping their predictive coding succeed in fewer passes
One of the things I liked about my English Major days was that all the writers we studied were safely dead. That having been said, I’ve never thought the author’s opinion about the meaning of his work was binding on all readers. In fact I think that the more imagination a work of art contains the more will be in it beyond what the author consciously put there and the less authority should be granted the author as a critic of his own work.
@Michael Murden
That’s pretty funny. That’s probably something I hated more than anything in English/Literature classes :P. To me a piece of writing is more like a patent than a piece of art, maybe up until the owner dies and the patent is then free to be misused however anyone likes. Till then, I fill like the person who made the damn thing should be allowed to tell people what it’s for.
That complete different in perspective is really amusing to me. Maybe the difference between an engineering major and an english major.
@Wilshire
I remember a little while ago in a discussion on this blog of Neuropath someone mentioned that some of the more hideous scenes, for example the woman fucking herself with a glass shard, were being discussed on another site as if they were intended to be sexual stimulation for a certain type of male reader. That was clearly not the author’s intent, so yes, I think some limits on interpretive license should be respected, at least during the author’s lifetime.
@Wilshire
…And then too many English majors are wannabe literary critics and literary critics are mostly failed writers, so I suspect at least some hostile reviews and bad-faith interpretations are motivated by envy and spite toward people who were able to actually sit down and finish something then actually get it into print.
@Wilshire
…And of course many other English majors are Engineering majors who flunked Calculus…
Help Grimdark Magazine publish more Bakker and more! https://grimdarkmagazine.com/blogs/news/111563270-evil-is-a-matter-of-perspective-an-anthology-of-antagonists#.V0eHS9ReTbY.twitter
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
Is this an Eärwa story, Bakker?
Not really relevant to anything recent, but:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3968
Is it some zeitgeist thing that SMBC seems to move in parralel with PON (and vise versa)? : http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3974
It is. I think that at least in the United States a presidential election year is a good time to be publishing a book about demagoguery. Given our likely general election candidates it’s also a good time to be publishing a book about the relative spiritual merits of men and women. Donald Trump makes a funny sort of dull-witted Kellhus, and Hilary Clinton makes a funny sort of crooked Esmenet. Maybe Scott can pitch The Second Apocalypse as a primer on American politics.
I also think SMBC shares Scott’s rejection of the idea that human beings in particular and living beings in general are exceptions to the rules that describe the rest of the universe.
And makes 7k a month on patreon.
https://www.academia.edu/25503083/The_end_of_what_Phenomenology_vs_speculative_realism
Zahavi takes at speculative realism’s attack on phenomenology
Gah! The question I most want answered! But do I read it now or wait? What are you DOING to me?? 😉